Podcast

Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life. Donna Jones

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Unshakable Hope podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kelly Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions such as, how do I trust God’s heart when his ways and delays are breaking mind? We’ll hear from people just like you and me who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected my prayers, that God would renew our hope and his word and his love through these conversations.

 

kelly: Hey friends. Welcome to the Unshakable whole podcast. My guest today is Donna Jones, and she asked the question, what if you could have more peace tomorrow over the conflict you’re facing today? Her book is titled, healthy Conflict.

kelly: Peaceful Life. Lisa Terkeurst, a New York Times bestselling author, endorses the book. She writes, conflict may be inevitable, [00:01:00] but there is a way to pursue relational health and honor God in the middle of it all. This is such an important message for the church. I couldn’t agree more. God values unity. Jesus prays for our unity in John 17, and one of the things I talk about a lot on this podcast is processing grief.

kelly: How do we get curious with the Lord? How do we tell him the truth about what we’re dealing with so that he can heal us? One of the first things we always have to do. If we’re gonna walk on this journey, is to pay attention to our soul. And I think that’s one of the reasons I like this book so, so, so much is because it really helps us pay attention to those areas inside of us that we need to bring to the Lord. We discover that as God brings peace inside of us, that we can be a vehicle of peace. And this piece spills over into all our relationships. So let me introduce you to my guest, Donna Jones. She is an author, speaker, church [00:02:00] planter, pastor’s wife, and a self-described bible explainer. She hosts the weekly podcast called, that’s just what I needed, which is very encouraging and full of hope. She and her husband, JP, live in Southern California, they have three kids. She describes them as incredible and super fun adult kids. And now she also gets to enjoy being Gigi. She loves to read travel, and she says she’s a sucker for a really cute pair of shoes.

kelly: So Donna, I’m so glad you’re here today. Welcome.

Donna: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s, it’s just my privilege to be on your show.

kelly: Well, I want you to start off by just telling us, was there a conflict in your own life? Was there a place where your heart was really broken by conflict that prompted you to start understanding this topic and then writing this book?

Donna: Yeah. And yes, and I’m so glad you asked that question because it was really birthed out of , [00:03:00] a real life conflict. Broke my heart really, and I didn’t see it coming. It just completely blindsided me. It caused me to ask God a lot of questions. It caused me to get down in the middle of my shower and bawl my head off, you know, out it caused me.

Donna: To sometimes scream out to the Lord to read the Bible like I’d never read before. It taught me so many things, but it because it was such a painful circumstance and that’s all of us have been through stuff like that. There’s no one listening right now that hasn’t said Me too. And when it comes to relationships, which is, you know, we’re talking about conflict, which means we’re talking about relationships.

Donna: The thing that is most dear to our hearts is our relationships, and if our relationships are clipping along fine. Then we’re pretty okay. But if there’s something about our relationship [00:04:00] that is wrong, then we’re wrong. I mean, and, and then it, it consumes us, right? We’re thinking about it in the shower, as I mentioned.

Donna: We’re thinking about it driving down the road. We’re thinking about it. We’re making lunch. We’re thinking, , about what he said, what she said, what we said, what we wish we’d said. All of those things. And it’s like, it’s so all consuming. And it just completely can take us off our game.

Donna: So for me, that moment happened , it was a long time ago now, two decades, 20 years ago, exactly. In the, the summer. And my husband and I were at a thriving church. We loved it, but the pastor and my husband was the teaching pastor. The pastor decided to retire and. Unbeknownst to us, all of these political factions started happening behind the scenes and we kind of just got caught up in the middle of it.

Donna: And there were some lies that were told. There were, you know, my husband was promised certain things that never came about there. It [00:05:00] was just, let me just say, it was a mess. It was a train wreck. Mm-hmm. Not just for us, but for a lot of other people. And, you know, and then this was Christians. Yeah. And so I know myself going, okay, Lord, this is the body of Christ.

Donna: How can Christians treat each other this way? Yeah. And it just crushed me in so many ways and left me with so many questions. So one day I was I was, I, I was really having a hard day, so I thought, okay, I wanna meet my best friend for lunch, and just kind of processed some things with her. And so we met, we found this table where nobody could hear us, and she leans across the table and she goes, how are you doing?

Donna: And I just decided to be completely honest and I said, I’m not doing very well. And I said, you know what? Some days I feel like I wanna just burn down the church. And she looked at me and she goes, she looked horrified, first of all. And she goes I highly recommend you. Ever repeat that [00:06:00] to another human being?

Donna: Right? And she was trying to protect me because of course I wasn’t serious. I didn’t con, I don’t condone that thought. I was never actually serious. What I was basically saying was that. I’m so wounded and hurt, I just want it to stop and I will just, I, I’d do anything to make this stop, basically. Right.

Donna: And and this is where the part of the lesson, lesson in retrospect came in, is that when we’re hurt, when we’re in conflict because we’re hurt, it’s so hard to handle in a holy and healthy way.

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Donna: And so here I was. I mean, I was a pastor’s wife. I’ve been a Christian since a little. I was a little girl.

Donna: I was raised in a Christian home, and yet here I was so hurt. I didn’t know how to handle it in a healthy and holy way. And so unbeknownst to me, that was actually a great admission because it really sent me on this. Journey where I had to learn, [00:07:00] how do I handle this in a way? ’cause I’m gonna have to live with this.

Donna: Whatever I do in this situation, I’m gonna have to live with this. This will follow me. And I, I don’t wanna hang my head and regret and look back and say, I totally blew it. So that was kind of the impetus for, you know, how, how this became. And then also, just one other quick thing. As I was writing the book, I just was so aware and how much unity is on the heart of God.

Donna: Hmm. And so, because Unity’s on the heart of God, that means disunity is on the heart of Satan. So it’s a, it’s a really, really important thing that we understand how to handle conflict and hurt and all of the, all that goes with it in a healthy and holy way.

kelly: Gosh, that’s so powerful. You’re so right. The Lord caused you to be curious about the situation and not just to shut down [00:08:00] and become bitter, like because you were curious.

kelly: You’ve been able to work through these things and then produce a work from the Lord that is helping other people. Learn how to resolve conflict.

Donna: Yeah. And I love the fact that you keep using the word curious because I heard a, a therapist, and you may have heard this too, or maybe even said this say one time when you’re furious, get curious.

Donna: Yeah. Have you heard that before? I’ve heard that before. Okay. I had never heard it and I thought, oh, that was really good. So

kelly: that really goes along with your book. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It goes along with everything we’re talking about. The title is Healthy Conflict, peaceful Life.

kelly: All of us want more peace in our life. Yes,

Donna: we do

kelly: And the subtitle is a Biblical guide for Communicating Thoughts, feelings, and Opinions with grace, truth, and Zero Regrets. And that’s the question that God put on your heart. Is there really a way to walk through this where I won’t have regrets, can I handle this in a holy way?

kelly: Can I follow Jesus’ example? And that’s exactly what God [00:09:00] taught you to do. It’s amazing.

Donna: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I, one of the mistakes that I made back then was a belief that I had, and I think it’s a pretty common belief. And, you know, it’s almost one of those beliefs that we wouldn’t say that we have, but underneath we function as we have, and it was.

Donna: If so and so would change, then everything would be better. If that child would just change, if that friend would just change. And in my case, it was like if those people that are causing all of this dissension, if they would just change and stop doing this, all of this would be better.

Donna: And to a degree, that was true. Right?

kelly: Right.

Donna: But the reason that that kept me so stuck. Is because functionally I was putting my peace into the hands of people who may or may not change.

Donna: Mm.

Donna: And so I [00:10:00] had to come to grips with the fact that my piece. Is contingent upon me doing the right thing, not them doing the right thing.

Donna: And so I, I realized like, okay, if I do the right thing and I can just stand before the Lord and go up to the best of my ability, I, I handled this the way you wanted me to, then that brings me a measure of peace. And that, you know, it doesn’t make everything all, it doesn’t make everything hunky dory, but it does give us, it gives us a, some control.

Donna: Which is huge when there’s conflict. ’cause a lot of times we feel like we have no control. And number two, it gives us a sense of peace because, you know, we, we haven’t completely blown it.

kelly: Yeah, that’s so important. I can remember when my oldest daughter, she’s 38 now, but she was a very difficult little child and I was pretty sure that James Dobson should write another chapter in his book, you know, just for her.

kelly: Okay. But I would go around my house saying 38 years ago, if [00:11:00] only everybody in my family were sanctified already. This would be a lot easier.

Donna: And I used to say when my kids were little, do you not understand if everyone would just listen to me? This house would be so much more peaceful.

kelly: You told a story in the book about a woman. Where she was really having a hard time with her daughter.

Donna: Mm-hmm.

kelly: Yeah. But God spoke to her about a misconception she had about people changing. Do you remember that?

Donna: Yes. I think I know the one. , So I had spoken at a women’s conference center, women’s retreat. I do a , lot of speaking at conferences, so, and everybody left the room and the director of the conference center came up to me afterwards, and I’m gonna tell you the most important quality to handle conflict well.

Donna: That actually no conflict can be handled without. And then I’m gonna jump back into the story. It’s humility. Okay. So I had mentioned humility. I hadn’t gone into it a lot. I just had mentioned the importance of humility. And [00:12:00] this, I wasn’t even talking on conflict. I don’t know what I was talking about, but I’d mentioned humility.

Donna: So she comes up to me, everybody’s outta the room, and she says did you notice that I was sitting with my daughter? On the front row, and I said, I did. And her daughter was early twenties and she said, I want you to know that would not have been possible even a year ago. And I thought, oh, she has a story.

Donna: And I said, well, tell me what happened. And she said. I wanted nothing more to than to be a great mom. I mean, here she was a Christian, you know, she was like, wanted to teach her kids about Jesus and she wanted this loving family. And she said, my daughter was delightful as a child, but when she hit her teen years, our home was a battlefield.

Donna: And she said no one knew from the outside, but inside it was like a war zone. My daughter and I battled over everything, and when my daughter was 18, she moved out and we had a almost a non-existent relationship, [00:13:00] and, and she said, I tried everything. Tough love, soft love up, love down, love, right? Love left leg, you know.

Donna: She goes, I tried it. All right? And so she goes, but the one thing I hadn’t tried was I decided to invite my daughter out for lunch. I gave her, I gave her a promise. I said, in this lunch, I want you to tell me everything that you feel I ever did in your childhood that hurt you, that wounded you, that you felt was wrong, and here’s my promise to you.

Donna: I will not say a word. I will just listen. So they’d go to lunch and her daughter starts talking and you know, she says one thing, and this woman said I, everything in me wanted to say, yeah, but you don’t understand. Do you remember this was, and I only did that because, and, you know, I wanted to defend or explain, but she goes, I’d made the promise.

Donna: So I just remained quiet. So I, I was quiet and then my daughter realized like, oh. I’m [00:14:00] really just going to listen. And so then she told me another thing and then another thing and another thing, and she said, it was literally I felt like I got hit by a Mack truck, it was all of these things that my daughter felt I had done wrong.

Donna: And I, she goes, I just, I. I could barely even, you know, walk to the car. But she said, we got to the car and I’m driving home feeling so defeated. And then I look over at my daughter and my daughter looks different. She looks like the little girl I once knew.

Donna: And then she says to me, mom, that was the best conversation we ever had.

Donna: And she goes, that was the beginning of the reconciliation of our relationship. And here’s why I shared that story is because a lot of times people, when they hear the word humility, they think that’s a sign of weakness. Like, oh, I’m just gonna be a doormat. Right? But for that mom [00:15:00] to listen and not be defensive took so much strength.

kelly: You’re not kidding

Donna: so much self-control, right? I mean, unbelievable. Now, that didn’t mean they didn’t have subsequent conversations, you know, a month or so later. But see, she’d open the door because this is the important part. Humility is not humiliation. Humility makes us doorways for conversation, not a doormat for exploitation.

Donna: Hmm.

Donna: There is such a difference. So when we’re humble and we, we listen and we, we value another person’s side, what that does is it opens up the conversation because the other person feels heard and then that then allows us to be heard, right? So what most people do though is they either just completely avoid, or I wanna be heard and I wanna defend, [00:16:00] and then that.

Donna: You know, it shuts everybody down. So that’s, I, I just, I had such respect for that woman because it was such strength.

kelly: Such strength, being humble before the Lord. It’s the key. I just released a podcast by Cheryl Scanlon about the power of humility to open our heart to receive all that the Lord has for us.

kelly: Mm-hmm. It is the key. And what you said is this is the number one character trait. Yeah. To resolving conflict. What

Donna: you cannot if, if you are not humble, first of all, humble before the Lord. And saying, okay, I wanna do this your way. God, even though my my feelings, I feel one way I’m gonna operate outta my faith.

Donna: That’s humility before the Lord, right?

Donna: Mm-hmm.

Donna: And then being humble before another person, because again, that just. It softens the soil of the conversation. And then that’s where real change and real truth and real conversation, and then your opinions and your feelings and all of that [00:17:00] can get heard, but in a really healthy way.

kelly: Yes. So you’ve touched on two of the really big points, humility and listening, and you say humility is the superpower necessary for healthy human relationships. And someone who is being humble, they are seeking to understand and be understood. Mm-hmm. Which is the opposite of pride.

Donna: Yeah. Yeah. And I love the fact that you talked about understanding, because when we are in conflict, most of us, what we really want is understanding. We want the other person to understand our perspective, right? Yeah. And so what happens is that, okay, let me, let me back up a little bit. So I was a communications major at UCLA, did grad work at USC in communications, and we had this professor, this world renowed professor, she came and she talked on conflict.

Donna: And the first thing she said was, the root of all conflict is a power struggle. Oh yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. So it’s, it goes back to a power struggle, like whose opinion is gonna be validated, whose voice is gonna get heard, whose feelings are gonna be attended to, who’s gonna get their way? You know, it’s, it’s a power struggle.

Donna: Right,

Donna: right. That’s

why humility is kryptonite to this, because it doesn’t play the power game. Yeah. That’s why it’s so powerful. , So when we are in a conflict, we wanna be understood, right? Right. So if the other person dismisses what we say or they defend themselves or something like that, what we do is that we amp it up.

Or what our child does, or our spouse does, if they’re trying, they’re feeling all of these emotions and we’re kind of dismissing it, you know, or underplaying it with words like, oh my gosh, again. Or just get over it already. Or like, why are you making this such a big deal? Or, I did not do that.

You know, all of those things. What people [00:19:00] do is that we escalate it because in our mind we’re thinking, okay, she’s not getting it. So maybe if I escalated a little bit, she’ll understand what I’m trying to tell her. So that’s why we start raising our voices. We start getting more dramatic. We start, you know, when it really escalates, people slam doors, right?

So we escalate, escalate, escalate. Because we think if I escalate it, maybe she’ll finally understand how, what a big deal this is to me. And then if we still don’t understand. The, the conflict moves from escalation to end, and that’s when you hear people say things like, okay, just forget it. Okay, this conversation is over.

This is just, we’re, I’m, I’m done, I’m done. Or we give the silent treatment for, you know, for the rest of the day that’s ending it. Right. And, and it’s all because we don’t feel understood.

Donna: So we escalate and

then we [00:20:00] end.

kelly: Yeah. So I have a question about one thing you said. So you say the root cause of any conflict is a power struggle.

kelly: And so within that power struggle, you’re seeking to be understood. You want your opinion understood. And so one of the misconceptions you write about is that when we’re in conflict, we think. It pit me against everybody in my life. Like I’m on one side, everybody else is on the other side. And so how do we take that, that misconception and make it healthy instead of seeing ourselves on opposite sides of a problem?

kelly: How do we make it a healthy perspective?

Donna: Yes. Okay. I’m gonna give you a little phrase that. That if we can remember that, it will just turn everything around is don’t make the person the problem, keep the problem the problem.

Donna: Mm. What we tend to do is we make the person the problem, right?

Donna: So we tell our spouse you’re not helping me around the house. I [00:21:00] feel completely overwhelmed and you need to help me more with the house. Well, he may need to help you more with the house, right? Or he may need to help you more with the kids, but you’ve just made the person the problem and then that puts the other person on the defensive off the bat.

Donna: Where if it’s like, okay, I’m feeling overwhelmed right now, then that’s just, and I, and I need help. That’s, that’s a real problem, right? Nobody’s, we haven’t pitted anybody against anybody. And so now it’s like the two of you against the problem. Not me. Against you. It’s me and you. Against the problem. Does

kelly: that make sense?

kelly: Yes, absolutely. So if you just explain how you are feeling and it’s not attacking the other person mm-hmm. And you’re just saying, I just need some help, I’m feeling so overwhelmed. And that puts you both on the same team and that helps you resolve the conflict. And I, I love some of the ways that you had in the book about preparing ahead of time in your mind, [00:22:00] preparing for these conflicts.

kelly: I thought one of the things you talked about was so good about managing expectations. We all must manage expectations in every area of our life, and we need to listen to each other. And so you told a funny story about you and your husband, some expectations you had about some ice cream.

kelly: One evening and he diffused the conflict by saying something really profound in a ridiculous way. I don’t know if you remember this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donna: And in fact, it’s so funny, he just came from home. He doesn’t know I’m recording this, so he may open that door. . We’ll see. Yeah, so we, , had been married a little over a year.

Donna: We had this routine. We had ice cream together every night at like around 10 o’clock at night. ’cause we worked insane hours the first year we were married. So we came home late. Watch a little bit of tv, get ourselves a bowl of ice cream and finish watching whatever show was on. So he gets, goes to the kitchen, gets himself one bowl of ice cream, comes back into the family room, and I say, where’s my bowl of ice cream?

Donna: And he’s so innocent. He goes, well, what do you mean? [00:23:00] And I said, well, honey, we do this every night. How could you not know that I would want a bowl of ice cream? There is no deviation from our, you know, pat pattern here. And he just said, Donna, how would I know you wanted ice cream unless you told me you wanted ice cream?

Donna: Right. Makes completely logical sense. But newsflash conflict is never logical, right? It’s emotional. So for whatever reason, I get so mad at this. So I go stomping into the kitchen, I’m jerking, open the freezer, I’m spooning my ice cream, and he says, I’m gonna take out the trash. So he walks outside. It’s summer, the window.

Donna: Is open. I see him go past the window the first time to take out the garbage. He comes back, he puts his face right up to the screen. He gets a big smile on his face, and he says, expectation without communication. Leads to frustration. I said, did you just make that up? He goes, yep, just thought of it.

Donna: So, I’ve [00:24:00] since then heard, seen that like as a meme, but my came from my husband like 30 plus years ago. So, but that’s the truth. Expectation without communication leads to frustration. So one of the ways that we can prevent conflict. From happening in the first place is to be just try to be as upfront in our expectations as possible.

Donna: We can do that with our kids, we can do that with our spouse, we can do that with our coworkers. And let’s say we haven’t, you know, we haven’t expressed an expectation and we do find ourselves frustrated. Well, that’s like a learning lesson. ’cause we go, okay, wait, why am I frustrated here?

Donna: What happened that made me so frustrated. And then we backtrack and we go, well, X, Y or Z happened and I expected, you know, that something else was gonna happen. So, and then ask ourselves, well, did I communicate that? And nine times outta 10 we won’t have, right? Mm-hmm. So [00:25:00] we can just think, okay, well next time I need to communicate that upfront.

Donna: That can alleviate some, some conflict.

kelly: Right, right. Well, I’m gonna tell you a story about something that happened when my husband and I were a young married couple. Well, we had a young family, so we had been married for several years. We had four kids and he was in the Air Force Fighter pilot. He deployed a lot and for extended periods of time.

kelly: And so, as. As Air Force wives, our squadron would take off and then we would be taking care of the home. We’d be managing everything, all the kids, all the schedules, everything. And then they’d come home. But during that period of time, you know, the kids have changed, they have grown things have broken, things have been fixed, new boundaries have been set, whatever.

kelly: And so it was hard. It took everything in our power to, as I will just speak for myself, it took everything in my power to just be quiet and. Let my husband reintegrate into the family and love our kids in the way that was his love language, you know? Instead of just saying, [00:26:00] well, we don’t do that anymore, and then here’s the rules, and here, instead of interrupting constantly, like I just started to, I made myself be quiet and I just said.

kelly: He needs to integrate into the family, into our schedules and learn how to love the kids where they are, how they are, you know, right now I do not interfere. I do not need to interfere in this. I do not need to tell him all the new roles or whatever, but it was really hard for me to just make space for him to be himself in that place.

Donna: Okay. That is such a great, that’s such a, that was so wise. And you know what I love about that is that it wasn’t like you were never gonna have this discussion. Right? Because that would’ve just been avoidance. Right? Right. It was like, no, I need wisdom as to when I have this discussion and how I have this discussion.

Donna: And you know, right now, right when he gets home, that’s not the best time. So that was really wise.

kelly: Mm, well, it was because the Holy Spirit made [00:27:00] me shut my mouth. It’s almost like you put a finger over my lips. Like, you really don’t need to be talking right now. , And yes, that conversation was for another time.

kelly: And you even talk about in that, in your book, ways we can make things worse is just thinking that now is the time instead of waiting, sometimes the best choice is to wait.

Donna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is. And I think it’s really important going back to just what, pivoting from what we were just saying, is to really know the difference between avoidance and , and wisdom and waiting.

Donna: None of us like conflict. So we tend to, you know, how do I start that conversation? How do I say that so that it will turn out okay? I don’t even know if I can, right? So we just end up avoiding it, right? And then what ends up happening is that we make things worse rather than better, because we’ve avoided it.

Donna: And, and you know this Kelly, all of our listeners know this, is that when we just stuff, stuff, stuff, things, it eventually [00:28:00] comes out. Only it comes out in a really ugly way. Right?

kelly: Yeah.

So that’s why it’s like, that’s why avoidance is, is, is it’s one of the ways we make things worse rather than better. And we need, and really we just need the tools.

Okay, how can I enter into this conversation so that it doesn’t implode? Which is kind of why I write the book, because it gives us some, you know, ways to, to, to do that. So that’s, that’s one of ’em. We talked about like being dismissive. Of people, you know, that’s a huge one.

kelly: You have the most wonderful quote in this chapter. Nobody in the history of the world has ever ended a conflict by saying, just calm down.

Donna: That’s right. Nobody ever calms down when somebody says, calm down, nobody.

kelly: Right.

Donna: So yeah, so you know, being dismissive is, I think that’s the biggest one, and I. Again, we’ve already talked about this, but I think on a deeper [00:29:00] level, if we’re dismissive to people a lot, it communicates more than we’re dismissing them.

Donna: It actually communicates that we disrespect them.

Donna: Mm.

And there’s no dis we we have no regard. And that now, now we’re talking about, oh, now you’re talking about a deal breaker in relationships. Mm. Right. This goes deep. So you got. Marriage partners that dismiss each other and disrespect each other, that is not gonna go well.

You have parents and children who behave that way, that is not gonna go well. You have friendships, it’s just not, it’s, that becomes really, you’re on the edge of a destruction of a relationship. So it’s pretty big deal. Yeah. So that I think apologies. The way we apologize is a mistake sometimes that we make because this is the reality, is that when an apology needs to be made, and let’s say we’re the one that needs to [00:30:00] apologize, the other person, the other person got hurt.

What they really wanna know is that we know. That what we did hurt them. Right, right. So, or if I’m really hurt, if you, let’s just say, Kelly, you and I had a conflict and you talked about me behind my back, and that just broke my heart. Yeah. And just like devastated me. If you said, well, Donna, I’m sorry, or I’m sorry, but, you know, it, it, it, it wouldn’t really mean the relationship, but if you come to me and you say, Donna.

I, I talked about you and I know that had to hurt you. I hurt you with my words, and I’m so sorry I hurt you that way. I don’t wanna hurt you that way. Again, that’s a diffey, that’s a different, that’s a different level of reconciliation. So the flippant, I’m sorry, or, you know, those aren’t really gonna restore [00:31:00] a relationship.

So again, the other per, you know, what people wanna know is do I know. That I hurt you

kelly: right. That’s beautiful. Thank you for that example. Another one of the conflict mistakes that you mentioned that make relationships worse is assuming the worst about what somebody is doing, just presuming that they’re all about wanting to hurt us.

kelly: Can you talk about that? Yes.

Donna: Yes. Okay. And this one, this is a really tender one. For a lot of people, because what’s happened in our background is that we have been genuinely hurt by people that were supposed to love us, by people that we were trusted. Oh my goodness. Even my story where m. Fellow Christians, people that I considered friends, brothers and sisters in Christ.

Donna: And naturally what we do then is we, we put up walls of defense. ’cause we don’t want our tender heart to be hurt again. Right? Yeah. But the danger is that we start [00:32:00] painting everybody else with the same paintbrush and then we don’t, we don’t trust people and then we assume the worst. And then what happens is when we assume the worst.

Donna: Then that paints the other person, like back into a corner. And so they become defensive and we go, oh, see, that’s proof You’re defensive. And they’re like, well, I, I was backed into a corner. What do you expect? You know? So it, it’s not a healthy way to relate. Yeah. So, so a better way to relate is to assume the best until you know for sure the worst.

Donna: Mm-hmm. And I know that’s, it’s vulnerable. Yeah, it is. I’m not gonna sugarcoat that it’s vulnerable. But it actually opens space for us to have real relationships. Now that’s, you know, within reason. If there’s somebody that has already you know, been hurtful, already proved that they’re not trustworthy, that’s a different conversation.[00:33:00]

Donna: Then somebody who has generally been a good friend that has generally been a great coworker, and then something happens. And then we immediately go to, you know, assuming the worst. That’s those cases are where we’re like, okay, they’ve had a track record of being a great friend, or they’ve been a great, I, you know, I’ve worked for them with them for five years and I love them to pieces.

Donna: Those are the people assume the best. Yeah.

kelly: My sisters and I meet on Google meets. We all live in different parts of the country, but one of the things my middle sister will say is, I always assume the very best about you. You don’t have to wonder about what I meant.

kelly: So if I say something you misunderstand and it hurts you, you know right off the bat that you misunderstood that and that it came from a heart that loves you and wants the best for you.

Donna: Oh, I love that. I love that. And you know what, sometimes we can just ask people, like did you mean, you know, this is what I heard.

Donna: Is that what you meant? Yes. ,

kelly: So I wanted to mention Ephesians 4 [00:34:00] 29. Where you, you mentioned several Bible verses about how we can follow Jesus example and how we can love the way Jesus loved that Jesus.

kelly: He spoke the truth in love.

Donna: Yeah.

kelly: He sugarcoat it. He spoke the truth in love always. And Ephesians 4 29 says, let everything you. Say be good and helpful so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them, and that’s how Jesus lived. He did speak against the Pharisees, but I wonder if you can just expand on that

Donna: yes, that is such a good question. So, and I think sometimes, you know, people hear that, let everything you say, you know, be encouraging. That doesn’t mean that you never have hard conversations. Right, because sometimes the most encouraging thing I can hear is you’re not thinking about this correctly, or, you know, because ultimately that helps me be a better person.

Donna: It helps me live more in line with the truth. Mm-hmm. So we’re not talking about never saying something that’s hard, [00:35:00] never confronting someone with their sin. We’re not talking about that. And, and the, the, last part of that verse that it may benefit those who hear. Right? So that’s the key. Is this going to benefit the person and our relationship and how

Donna: and how, and I think even before, if you know, for anybody listening, that’s gonna have to have a hard conversation. Maybe even just write down, okay, when I talk about this, how is this gonna benefit the person and how will it benefit our relationship? Because there’s a difference between just, I just need to get this off my chest and tell them what I think, you know.

Donna: Well, that may or may not benefit them or your relationship, but if you can really specify that, it gives you confidence to go into that difficult. Conversation.

kelly: Yes. And I love how the Holy Spirit is so faithful to help us in those places. I’m gonna tell a funny story about myself that goes along with what you just shared.

kelly: So we were, again, a young married [00:36:00] couple. This is before we just had one baby. And I can remember being just a little annoyed with my husband. He had been gone for a year, he was home. And I was noticing all these little annoyances. So nothing bad, just places where he was different. And so I was kind of making a list in my head and I thought, okay, how can I share this with him?

kelly: And I came up with this really clever idea. Well, I’m just gonna ask him. Honey, if there, is there anything you would change about me if you could? So I’ll let him go first and I’ll listen and then I’ll unload my list. You know, so it’s gonna be like, I was really geared up for this and I, so I asked him that question and he responded, I know the Holy Spirit intervened here.

kelly: And he said. Kelly, there’s nothing I would change about you. I love you exactly as you are. I love you. And boy, I just melted my heart, melted my little plan, diffuse my list went out the window. I just thought, wow, I am. I am so selfish that, but one of the things that the Lord showed me through that, [00:37:00] it took me a while to receive the message, but God just spoke to me and said.

kelly: He is celebrating your differences. That’s what you need to do with him. Like you should not be trying to make him into you. I made you both unique. Celebrate your differences and stop being annoyed by them.

Donna: Yes. And that, you know that even goes back to like being a team in, in conflict.

Donna: So whether it’s with your spouse or with your kids, you know, I’m on your team you know that even just those words can diffuse a conflict. That’s the truth. We’re on the same team. . I’m on your team. We’re on the same team. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good story.

kelly: . Well, I was reading your book and just writing down so many things

kelly: I think this book is an important book that everyone in the world should read. I mean, it is so, oh, thank you. Good. So good at helping us pay attention to our souls, to pay attention to other people, to learn how to listen to them. It is full of biblical application.

kelly: This is how Jesus [00:38:00] loved people.

Donna: Well,

Donna: and

Donna: That was my goal. And , I wanna speak to somebody listening now that’s maybe right in the middle of conflict. Yes. And, and maybe she’s even thinking. I have not handled it. She’s already knowing. I already have regrets.

Donna: I’m not handling this well. Or maybe she’s even thinking, is there any hope? Like, I don’t know, this could be completely but beyond repair, and her heart is just breaking either over grief at the potential loss of a relationship, or maybe even grief at her own behavior. I wanna say. Everybody goes through this, like, you are not the only one.

Donna: We all deal with this stuff. But , there’s hope. There’s hope. And I, I mean, that’s really why I wrote the book because Kelly, I would never say like, oh, I learned these lessons and look, I did everything. No, no, no, no. There’s a million do-overs that I would still want.

Donna: Right,

kelly: right.

Donna: But I did wanna take somebody’s hand [00:39:00] and go, I understand it, I understand what it’s like to be confused. I understand what it’s like to be hurt. I understand what it’s like to, to want to do the right thing. I understand what it’s like to just not wanna do the right thing, I get it.

Donna: And so let’s just walk through because God’s word has so much to say and there’s practical wisdom, so that peace can rest in our souls and, and hopefully in our relationships. So there’s hope.

kelly: There’s hope. Amen. without a doubt, every single person listening has some conflict in their lives. None of us get out of this, free from that. But the thing we can remember is that God will make a way he never leaves us. Stuck. He wants unity. Like you said in the beginning. He values unity. He will work in and through you to bring about some kind of unity, even if it’s just in your heart with him.

Donna: Yeah, and you bring up a good point, just an answer to this very last question. It’s really two parts. The two [00:40:00] last things I would say number one is for first of, first of all, to understand that conflict is a part of life. And I know we all say that. But what ends up happening is when we don’t fully embrace that conflict is normal, it’s going to happen, one of three things happens.

Donna: We either think when there’s a conflict, you are bad or We think I’m bad. Or we think we are bad.

kelly: Yeah.

Donna: And it may or may not be any of those three. It might just be we’re human. So just to understand con, like let’s normalize conflict. I, I feel like Christians need to understand that so that we can move forward and then do the right thing.

Donna: And then, this is just so key is that, when we follow God’s game plan for how we’re supposed to handle conflict, and again, the book goes into detail into how to do this, but [00:41:00] that sets us up for the biggest chance of restoration and reconciliation.

Donna: But when Jesus said, when your brother and sister sins against you, go to them, you know, point out their fault. You know, if they listen, you’ve won your brother. Right? And he uses that word if, which I think is really very telling because what Jesus was telling us is that it’s not always going to work out the way we want it to.

Donna: It’s an if so, but. Even if the relationship is not restored or reconciled like we would’ve hoped, if we’ve done the right thing before the Lord, the relationship might not change. But what will have happened is we’ve changed.

kelly: Yeah, we’ve changed.

And that’s a win. You know that that’s a win because that’s where Jesus is taking us, so that you can’t lose if you do that.

kelly: Amen. [00:42:00] There’s one other aspect that just briefly, maybe you could touch on this. If someone has been deeply wounded in their childhood, you know, they have a lot of triggers. Yes. When we notice that we are responding in an overblown way to a particular situation, that’s when we might be working out of a trigger in our life.

Donna: Yes. Yeah, and that’s way more common than we think. You know, obviously people who’ve experienced childhood trauma, like real trauma, they’re probably pretty aware. Like yeah, I probably have some triggers. Those of us maybe who didn’t have. Trauma or as much, you know, dysfunction or whatever, we may be less aware of our triggers, but we still have them, right?

Donna: That’s true. Yes. So what we need to pay attention to is repeated conflicts. Like, is there something that constantly, constantly causes me to just snap, constantly causes me to lose my cool or here’s another one, constantly [00:43:00] causes me to shut down. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because if, if there’s something, then what’s behind that?

Donna: There’s something that triggered that. And again, , we’re trying to protect ourselves. So we either protect ourselves from by fight or flight or freeze.

Donna: Yeah.

Donna: So that can give us a clue into like, okay, these are my triggers. And then when we know our triggers, then we can better handle them.

Donna: Because when it starts to happening, we’re like, oh, okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is a trigger for me. I better step out of this for a minute. Or just even tell the person if it’s, you’re really close with the person, this is a trigger for me because of X, Y, and Z. You know, it’s communication.

kelly: Right, right. That’s so good. I love what your son said. We all have a little bit of crazy in us

Donna: that’s right.

kelly: Donna, thank you so much for your time. To close us by just telling us how people can get connected with you.

Donna: Yeah, well I love to connect with people ’cause my heart is for people and to help people. So you can get a copy [00:44:00] of the book everywhere. Books are sold. Amazon, Barnes and noble Christian books.com. My website everywhere place. On Instagram, you can follow me at Donna A. Jones. Again, I have to put the A in there because you know Donna Jones very common.

Donna: On Facebook, if that’s your thing. I’m Donna Jones, speaker and author, or my website by the way, Kelly has a lot of free resources. And my website is donna jones.org. So I’d love to connect with your listeners any and every way.

kelly: Oh, Donna. This has been such an encouragement.

Donna: Aw, thank you so much. It has been absolutely my privilege and joy.

If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great if you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving a review. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, kelly hall.org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for listening to the Unshakeable Hope [00:45:00] podcast.