Podcast

Biblical Hope through Infertility and Loss. Angela Mackey

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Unshakable Hope Podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kellie Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions, such as how do I trust God’s heart when His ways and delays are breaking mine? We’ll hear from people just like you and me, who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected.

My prayer is that God would renew our hope in His word and His love through these conversations.

Kelly: Hey guys, before I get to the topic for today, I wanted to ask you to visit my website kellyhall. org and sign up for emails if you haven’t already. On the home page, you just scroll down, you’ll see a place to submit your email. You’ll receive a free PDF of three inspirational bookmarks. I promise, I will never spam you with messages, but I would love to be connected with you.

And honestly, I’d [00:01:00] love to hear from you. I have a new Bible study in the works that’ll be rolling out sometime in 2025, Lord willing. I add that because as we talk about quite frequently on this podcast,

The plans we make are often disrupted by unexpected delays and detours. Proverbs 3:5,6 reminds us, Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Don’t depend on your own understanding. Seek His will in all you do and He will show you which path to take.

That’s the New Living Translation. Just so grateful that the Lord will generously pour out his help and grace. And we’ll be there with our jaws hanging open, just awed and amazed as he accomplishes his purpose in creative ways we never would have imagined, we never could have come up with. Angela Mackey is my guest today, and she’s someone who has experienced God pouring out his love and grace in abundance.

She’s also one of my friends who has a gift of encouragement, the gift of mining [00:02:00] practical inspiration from God’s word. She’s going to be sharing about a time of deep loss in her own life that involves infertility and how God met her and brought hope and encouragement in that heartache. I just want to say that even if infertility is not your story, I believe there’s great benefit in this conversation.

It helps us know how to be a good friend to someone else going through infertility. And we’re also going to be laying out some really practical ways to walk through suffering of any kind. So let me introduce her. Angela Mackey has a master’s in biblical and theological studies.

She has her bachelor’s in nursing. She’s a Maxwell certified speaker and trainer. She’s written many Christian articles, contributed to a couple of different books. Her website is rethinkingmythinking. com where she encourages others to rethink their thinking in light of God’s word so that we can all live transformed lives.

She just released a new book. Difficult to [00:03:00] conceive a godly perspective for the road ahead. The ebook is out now and physical copies will be available soon and possibly today. Angela is so vulnerable in this book and like a good friend, she just comes alongside and offers biblical hope and compassion to those who are walking this journey of infertility.

She lives in Arkansas with her husband and three kids. And I’ll just tell you up front that two of these kids were born through IVF and one of them wasn’t. So she’s going to lay out that story for us. So Angela, thank you so much for coming on this show.

I’m really glad you’re here.

Angela: Thanks for having me. I’m so excited.

Kelly: Is there anything you want to add to that introduction?

Angela: Oh, goodness. Introductions make you sound way better than you really are in real life.

So yeah, I just want you to know I’m a real person who cannot keep her house clean and I have absolutely no organization, but it’s just the way it works. And so God is good. And thankfully my husband and my kids have learned to [00:04:00] help me with the mess.

Kelly: I love that. We all feel a lot better now. So I know you have a really busy life. I think you’re also caring for your parents during this time. And so I just wonder if you could share with us what you do to refresh your soul during this season of your life.

Angela: Yeah. It is kind of a crazy season. My parents don’t live in my town. I, but I do help travel back and forth to help them when they need help.

And they’re amazing. But the biggest thing I do, I’m kind of a beauty finder. And so I love, like, I, I want to walk. I want to be outside. I love nature, but like, I love to hear voices raised in song. So I’m, I love to listen to musicals lately. I’ve had Les Mis on repeat but I also love sports.

And so I like to watch and We went all over that too. And just finding God’s beauty in things. And then I love to create. So lately I’ve been knitting some blankets for some college kids. But you’ll find me just doing all kinds of different things, but those are the things that kind of [00:05:00] slow down and just go, wow, look at God.

Kelly: Oh, I love that. Angela, you have a story of deep loss and I just want to open up the show with you giving us an overview of that story,

Angela: yeah. I was a kid who always knew exactly how God was going to work things out in my life.

If you know what I mean, I was good. I knew when I was going to get married, dear, you know what I’m saying? Like, like I’m going to meet my husband in college, I’m going to have kids. I’m going to do this and that. And so, And because I loved God and I was obedient to what he wanted me to do, at least in my head, some, you know, sometimes we like to avoid the things that we’re not obedient in.

I just knew that he was going to bless my plans. When I did not meet my spouse in college, I didn’t get the clue that maybe things weren’t going to go my way. But I did meet my spouse not long after college. We got married and when it was time to start having kids, we didn’t really have any problems having our first child at all.

And so I was just like, hey, we’re trucking along. This is exactly God’s on plan. I’m on plan. We’re on target. [00:06:00] And when it was about time to start, we decided. We want to try to have our second child and we got pregnant pretty easy again. And I was like, yes, the early on in that pregnancy, I started having spotting, which is somewhat normal in early pregnancy, but also kind of not.

And we discovered that I had a tubal pregnancy and before they could even I could finish getting the treatment for that tubal pregnancy. It ruptured. And that’s a severe pain. But also I actually lost about half my circulating volume of blood. So I could have died. We didn’t know that until later on and some blood transfusions later, I was fine.

But in my head, I knew that this, there’s something wrong here. This is not what God had in store for me because he was going to give me the kids I wanted. So I was like, okay, one tubal pregnancy, grieving the loss of that child. But I knew I wanted more kids. I knew that’s what God had put on my heart.

And so when it was time to try again, we tried again, had no problems getting [00:07:00] pregnant, probably about two months into trying to conceive we got pregnant two or three months in. And this time I had pain on the other side. And I was like, surely not Lord, but somehow I knew, I mean, I knew before the doctors even knew they were all like, Oh, your lab work looks fine.

Oh, this you’re probably not. But before they could even definitively diagnose it as a tubal pregnancy, I had rupture pain again, which is also very uncommon. Tubal pregnancies don’t normally do that. So I, yeah, in about six months time ish, six or seven months time, I lost my ability to conceive naturally.

And so what do you do when you know that you want more children, your heart is for more children and you know, you did it all right in your own head, like you didn’t have sex before marriage, you know, all the things, and here we are just grieving the loss of these children, grieving the loss of being able to conceive naturally and just not knowing where to go next.

Kelly: The pain of that [00:08:00] rupture, I can’t even imagine. That’s emergency room kind of pain. That’s 10 out of 10, bring you to your knees kind of pain. And then losing all of that blood also is very severe, life threatening

Angela: yes, I think we forget that like because you know, we’re in this time period where we have all this medical Knowledge that people still die from tubal pregnancies rupturing.

It doesn’t happen as often now because it’s normally caught earlier I actually probably had started rupturing. I even went to the emergency room and they sent me home telling me it’s just pain from the treatment that it’ll get better. And I was probably bleeding all that night into myself into the following day.

But God was so gracious that whole day that I would normally be by myself with my almost two year old child. I was I had somebody with me the whole time. And when it was time for me to go to the emergency room, because the pain got so bad, my mom and my sister, who were coming in from out of town to help me, drove up to my door and were right there when it, when that pain hit.

So [00:09:00] God, you can just see, even through the darkness and the hard time, you can see His hand of grace and His hand of protection on me through it all.

Kelly: That’s incredible. That just gave me chills. I love how God provided so specifically and personally for you.

So suddenly you’re realizing it’s such a short time. You’re not going to be able to conceive naturally again. And you’ve suffered. You’ve come right up to the door of: I could have lost my life. So that’s a lot to walk through. So I’m just wondering if that sent you into a deep depression, how did you deal with this?

Angela: Yeah, I remember particularly I can’t remember if it was the first or the second tubal pregnancy, but my pastor had been preaching on Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and , their story came so alive, I could stand there and just tell God you didn’t do it my way, and I’m mad, and all that, or I can say, I know you’re able, God, but even if you don’t, I’m not going to bow my knee to anyone or anything [00:10:00] else.

And that was my choice right there. In that hospital, I could be angry. I could be keeping God at a distance or I could just say, I know you were able and you chose not to. And so now I need to see what you’re going to do with this next. And he I was hoping that what that meant was I was going to get to bring maybe a doctor or a nurse to to know Jesus or something but instead he called me to write a book.

Yay. And share the story more broadly than I ever expected. So,

Kelly: and that was how many years ago.

Angela: That was, let’s see here. My youngest is now 16. That would have had to be right around 19 20 years ago. Yeah.

Kelly: So I would love to have a little more insight into your infertility journey.

My son and daughter in law went through four years of infertility and IVF treatments. And so we’ve walked through a lot of that and know how painful it can be and how much loss you experience on a regular basis.

Angela: Right. [00:11:00] Yeah. So every IVF story is a little bit different and because my IVF story, the reason was because those tubes were broken.

I didn’t have problems necessarily with creating eggs or with my husband’s sperm. There was no issues. So when I went to a reproductive endocrinologist, I’m like, Hey, you know, embryos in my eyes are babies. And so I need to, I mean, we want to make sure that we don’t have too many. But at the same time, we kind of want a big family, like what’s, you know, what should we do?

And at the time, I think things are a little different now, but at the time my doctor’s like, Most people don’t get more embryos than they need. You hardly ever have extras. So we’re just gonna, as long as you’re okay with it, we’re just gonna treat you just like anybody else. And I was like, cool. So we walked through that process.

We know that not all embryos that are created even make it to the point where they can be transferred. And so, by the time we got to the point where they could be transferred, there were nine embryos.

, so then we have nine that we can transfer, we transfer two on that fresh cycle, and I get [00:12:00] pregnant right away actually with twins but the, one of the twins just stops developing. So, I have my middle child who is 18 now.

. And so we go to do our next frozen transfer and I don’t get pregnant at all. So now we have five babies in the freezer and we went ahead and transferred two at a time.

And then we transfer two more, and at that point I get pregnant, but only with one.

The other one didn’t implant at all. And I have another kind of crazy story. So we decided. Because I might lose my uterus if I were to get pregnant again because of a complication with my previous pregnancy, we decided to transfer all three. And my prayer was, Lord, give me, just for some reason, I had enough chairs around my table.

Just Give me a healthy triplet pregnancy, please Lord. There’s three more. I just felt like that’s what he was asking me to pray for And I just I didn’t get pregnant so There’s so much loss and grief in all of that. There’s also [00:13:00] hope because there’s potential for a beautiful human life there But there’s also the loss of getting to conceive naturally, like most people get to have fun and I am having to give myself shots and be on artificial hormones. My doctor did not live in the same town I’m in so I had to drive two and a half hours there and two and a Half hours back and it took me I can’t even tell you how many years probably more than 10 years before I could start heading towards that town without kind of getting a little anxious just because of it was good, but it was so hard.

And so yeah, so there’s a lot of loss There’s a lot of grief and you feel very isolated.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what I want to do is spend some time talking about the lies that we believe during times of loss or specifically infertility and the comfort.

The ways that we can be comforted by the Lord

what were some of the lies? What was the biggest [00:14:00] lie that you believed? What was the hardest thing for you to process with all that?

Angela: Yeah, I think the biggest lies that I’m alone, like nobody else can understand this.

That’s probably the hugest lie. And I would say, I mean, the statistics are. One in six couples, at least in the United States at some point in time suffer from infertility. So it’s a lie that you’re alone. I think I bought the lie that nobody will understand, you know, and maybe they don’t fully understand ’cause they can’t jump in there.

But, but they understand grief, they understand loss, and sometimes we don’t allow we think that because we’re so unique and different that what they have to say can’t speak to me. And so there’s some of that. I would say another lie is just that I’m defective or broken or one of those things.

Because it was my fault. You know, and other, the other thing is that your marriage just kind of changes. You can’t help it. Like [00:15:00] normal marriages, most of the time, you know, you’re going to have kids. When some, when there’s infertility and you know, the reason sometimes, I mean, a lot of infertility, you don’t understand, like it’s called an undefined infertility.

Like you just don’t know why. But we knew why and we knew it was my tubes. And In some ways that I have, like, carried a guilt that, you know, my husband, if he was with anybody else, could be having these kids that he wanted. And he is a guy who loves kids and wanted kids. He had actually considered being a pediatrician for a while, but he didn’t want to have to deal with parents.

But but feeling that and not knowing how do I talk to myself about this? He is my best friend. I love him dearly. But How do I talk to him about this and not even if it’s funny because when I showed him parts of the book that he needed to read to, to sign off on, he goes, wait, you felt that way?

Because [00:16:00] sometimes I didn’t I, there was so much pain and sometimes we let what we feel like makes us different isolate us. Even from God. And so then we start, keeping God away. This is not how you were supposed to do this. This is not what I thought this is not, you know, whatever.

And so we get mad and we stiff arm God and we lose that. He’s the God of all comfort, you know, but there is a tension. There’s that tension of, God, you are able, you were able to do anything and you are not for me. And so how do you cling to him and love him? When it doesn’t seem, he doesn’t seem to be, maybe he doesn’t seem to be keeping his promises, if that’s the way your brain is twisting it, or it just doesn’t seem to be working, or you know, you can but you didn’t, why not?

And so yeah, so, so often we just stiff arm him in those areas.

Kelly: Yeah, that’s so true. I know that my daughter in law shared that, you know, the comparison thing was just poison having to stay off social [00:17:00] media when she was going through the infertility. And then also the lie that she had no purpose or value without children.

That’s the big lie that culture’s put on you and feeling like it’s your. Your fault, like you described, that was, that’s huge. Another lie that a lot of people believe when they’re walking through any kind of suffering is this is punishment for something I did. And that is not the heart of our God.

God does not work that way. It is not punishment, but when you see people getting pregnant so easily without having to pay for it, and then you’re having to walk through so much pain and feeling like a pin cushion, you know, there’s, that’s a very Isolating and difficult and painful. So I’m thankful that you were able to tell the truth to your husband, even if it was years later, when he read the book that you’ve written so many years later and your book what’s the name of it?

Angela: It’s called difficult to conceive a godly perspective for the road ahead.

Kelly: All right. You talked about how [00:18:00] it’s so easy to stiff arm God. And I’ve talked about that a lot on this show.

That is very easy to want to just shut down all communication with God. You’re mad, you’re hurt, you’re offended. So how do we stay in conversation with God when we’re suffering? What did you do?

Angela: Well, God like he often does talk to me through his word, right? And so he brought me to where Jacob was wrestling with God.

And I know everyone’s like, you shouldn’t wrestle with God. Or you, I mean, people hear that. And I’m like no. He showed me when Jacob wrestled with me, Angela, he walked away changed and he walked away blessed. He limped for the rest of his life. That’s how he was changed. But sometimes we need that to keep us humble and keep us reliant on God.

And so sometimes we walk away. After we wrestle with God with some kind of change in our spirit, but most of the time, that’s because we need to be humble because we are not God and he is sometimes we need that [00:19:00] reminder.

Kelly: And

sometimes I’m just going to add the suffering just deepens our understanding. And I am so thankful that suffering purifies our hopes and really rescues us from speaking platitudes to people who are hurting. I am so thankful that God protected people that I become friends with who are walking through suffering that I’m sure I have spoken platitudes, but I’m grateful for the way suffering has deepened my understanding of his heart.

Angela: Yes.

Oh, yes. So there’s a book I had to read in college called Lament for a Son, and the author’s last name is Walter Storf, and he wrote in there, it’s kind of a journal after his son died, and one of the quotes, it’s not going to be exact, but something to the effect of, to love this suffering sinful world is to suffer.

And

so you could almost change John 3, 16, [00:20:00] instead of God so loved the world, God so suffered for the world that he gave his only begotten son. And so when we truly suffer well, we are understanding and leaning into God’s love even better. And it’s such a beautiful picture of that. And so, yeah, so When we’re willing to come to God and wrestle those things out, you know, you can’t wrestle with somebody unless you’re right up in their grill.

Right? Like, and so when you’re wrestling with God, you’re close enough to hear his voice. You’re close enough to hear him. Comfort you where you need to be comforted. Encourage you where you need to be encouraged, but also correct you. Because don’t we all need correction? Cause we’re a little bit wayward.

And, but it’s always in a loving way so that when we’re done with that wrestling, we walk away changed. And we walk away blessed.

Kelly: Amen. Just like Jacob. Just like Jacob. That’s so good. I just want to mention that this summer, I did a solo [00:21:00] podcast on the life of Jeremiah. Not the whole life, but just the way he wrestled so passionately and expertly.

He was a world class wrestler with the Lord in Jeremiah 20 and how it taught me so much about the fact that we can be confused about the pain we’re walking through and convinced that God really is who he says he is. But the only way to land in a place where the confusion is not louder is to wrestle that out with God.

Angela: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, because otherwise, I go back to when when Jesus is asking the disciples, you know, Hey, look, these people have left. Aren’t you going to leave? And I think it was Peter who said, you have the words of eternal life. Where else can I go? And it’s that it’s God.

You have a plan and a purpose. God you are my comfort. You are my all in all. I have nowhere else to go. So I, if I don’t wrestle this out with you, I’m going to end up bitter. I’m going to end up [00:22:00] depressed. And that doesn’t mean that depression is not going to try to take a hold of you. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to have seasons of depression.

It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be somebody who has to take medicine for depression. Please don’t hear that. But it does mean that we have, A father who cares and who’s with us and who walks with us through those hard times. And I mean, his word even says he’s near to the broken hearted.

So isn’t that beautiful to know that especially when we’re struggling, he is close to us in a special way.

Kelly: Amen. Yes. I love that so much. The wrestling and. Asking God questions has really rescued my weary heart more than anything else because we follow a Savior who speaks. We have the Holy Spirit in us who loves, delights in sharing the very thoughts of God with us.

Our purse, his very thoughts toward us personally, practically that powerfully rescue our hearts from weariness when we experience him in those places. It’s so amazing and [00:23:00] encouraging. I want to talk about some of the ways that we can foster joy. Even when we’re walking through suffering, and I just want to, I want us to spend just a moment, maybe even defining joy, because it doesn’t mean I’m jumping up and down.

Happy, clappy. I’m not being happy, smiling. How would you define joy, Angela?

Angela: So there is a guy named. Fred Smith, I know very generic name, but his name is Fred Smith and he wrote a book and one of the things in this book it’s actually a book for leadership, but he has a definition for joy in there that he calls complete adequacy.

Just meaning that. I have all that I need and I can rest and trust in that. And that’s a kind of joy. And so that’s really the kind of joy we’re talking about. It’s not like a we hear this is great, but you can experience [00:24:00] it standing next to a casket. You can experience it. As you are struggling with and trying to figure out why God has me in this difficult season.

But you can only experience it if you’re going to him, and if you’re sure that he has the answer, even if he doesn’t tell you, even if he doesn’t answer the question the way you want him to, or really answer the question you ask, he always gives you the answer you need. Normally is I am enough. My grace is sufficient.

Kelly: Amen. Oh, that is so powerful. So I think the word I want to use just because I don’t want people. To misunderstand is, let’s just talk about how God comforted you in those times and when we experience God’s comfort, when we experience his presence in our deepest sorrow, that’s a beautiful thing.

And that’s the joy. That’s the joy we’re talking about is the joy of the presence of God, that everything he [00:25:00] said is true. So share with our listeners some of the ways that God brought comfort to you in your pain.

Angela: Yeah I think one thing is I didn’t want to go through anything that painful that didn’t Matter, you know what?

I mean? Like yes, I don’t want this wasted and part of one one beautiful Scripture and I don’t have the reference. I’m really sorry, but he actually keeps our tears in a bottle

Yeah,

it’s in Psalms where he collects our tears and keeps them in a bottle. So he’s like, I know each of those tears that you cried and I know why you cried them.

And so they have a value and a purpose. If he’s saving them in a bottle, they have a value and a purpose. And so understanding that. That while I don’t know what the purpose is, why I may never understand the purpose, God does. It’s not random. It’s not chance. It’s not just because he wants to sit back and what’s she gonna do now?

God has eternal

Kelly: purpose.

Angela: Nothing is wasted. [00:26:00] Yeah, so, so that was one of the biggest things. Just him reminding me of who he is. I mean, I think sometimes we get a picture of, well, this is who God is and he has to act in my little box. You know what I mean? And instead he comes and says, no, this is who I am.

I’m bigger than you ever imagined. I have better plans than you could possibly think. I am who I say I am. And. Whether I give you more children or not, which I’m so thankful he did. But whether I give you more children or not, it’s, I am still enough. I am still who I say I am. And I still have a plan and a purpose for your life.

And I think that’s important for women to hear too, because there’s a ton of Christian circles where the only purpose for our women, woman is to have kids and to mother and to grow up. You can mother in so many different ways than birthing babies. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can be a mentor. You can work [00:27:00] with youth.

You can, I mean, there’s so many different ways that you can be a mother without biologically being a mother and without even adopting. You can be a mother. But even so, God calls women and gifts them so differently that you don’t have to be stuck thinking I have to be a mom to be a good Christian because this is the Vision of the perfect christian woman.

No, the perfect christian woman is a woman who lives in humble Obedience to her father and works out their salvation every day And that’s what it is and it can look and god is so creative. It looks different for every person.

Kelly: So good.

I just want to clarify what Angela and I are saying. So Philippians 2 12 talks about working out your salvation with fear and trembling. But in the very next verse, verse 13, it says, it’s God who works in you both to will and work for his good pleasure. So just for those who may have come from a a legalistic Bible teaching background, That might just smack up against some things that [00:28:00] you’ve heard that you have to earn your salvation and you have to work to please God.

And that’s not at all what this is talking about. So just to clarify, we’re staying in conversation with the Lord as He continues to mold us into these beautiful, unique people who reflect the heart of God to the world.

Angela: Right. That is exactly right.

but yeah, when you work out your salvation with fear and trembling, it’s really just, you’re partnering with the Holy Spirit to look more and more like Jesus every day. It’s not that you’re doing anything to earn it. You already have it because of the work of what Jesus has done.

It’s just that all of us, our faith, like, even it says in James, our faith ought to. Result in works and it’s it’s because of what Jesus has done that we have The faith that we can do anything. So it’s just partnering with that. Holy spirit living with us within us so that we can look more and more like jesus Yeah,

Kelly: that’s so good. So you talked about some of the ways you were comforted And i’m going to share some specific things as well But I think also you were [00:29:00] comforted by the fact that there are a lot of women in the bible who experienced infertility Is that right?

Angela: You Definitely. Yeah. There’s a ton of women in there who have experienced infertility. Probably the one that touched my heart the most is Hannah. Because first thing she’s one of two wives and the other wife is having kids and she is not. And so she is feeling that, that comparison gap that we all, that’s very common.

I mean, I remember sitting not long after my first tubal pregnancy, sitting in a baby shower and just trying my best to paint on that smile to be there for my friend, but also grieving for what was not for me. And and Hannah’s prayer was just, Lord, give me a baby so that I can give him back to you. And that became my prayer.

In fact, I made a quilt for my second child. And in the middle of the quilt was for this child. I have prayed because of how much I identified with Hannah.

Kelly: That’s beautiful.

That’s a very powerful [00:30:00] story so one of the things that my daughter in law shared with me is that they had an answered prayer jar when they were going through the deepest, hardest part of this journey, and they would reread answered prayers , and it was from things that were simple daily and things that were big, things that were related to infertility, things that were related to work, relationships, just all the things.

, and they would. Gain so much confidence in God and so much peace as they would just put the answered prayer jar on the table and just pull them out and reread all of them. And that was a powerful way that God encouraged their hearts and gave them hope through the journey.

Angela: Yes, that’s knowing and seeing God working in your life in the past and looking for him in the current journey is so valuable because isn’t that what almost most of the Old Testament is?

It’s just a record of what God did through Israel and through all [00:31:00] these people. And it gives us encouragement to know if he did that for them, he can do it for me. But then when you look at your own life, and see the different ways that God was working in your life, then you have more and more confidence that he was faithful, then he’s faithful now.

I don’t see how he’s faithful. I don’t necessarily see what he’s doing, but if he was faithful, then why would he change now? Isn’t that? Yeah. And that’s a new worship song, right? Yeah. I don’t know if it’s new anymore, but we sing it like, Why would he fail now? He won’t. That’s the refrain.

Kelly: Yeah, it’s so important.

You could even call it a remembrance jar. Just putting in all the ways that you have seen God’s faithfulness in your life and the ways he provided maybe even. Financially, when you needed something, maybe at a time when you were sick or one of your kids was sick, just remembering all the ways he provided for you.

I love to just sit with my journal and re remember these ways. It’s so encouraging to my heart. But I just want to [00:32:00] mention two other ways that God encouraged her and would love to hear your feedback, Angela. So, She went to a counselor who specialized in infertility. That was helpful to talk to someone who really understood the ins and outs of how hard this was.

And the other thing that was so sweet was being open to God moments. So we already talked about this, like, instead of holding God at arm length, you said. You will not experience God’s peace and hope unless you remain in conversation with him, wrestle it out. That’s where you get the God moments.

That’s where you gain the peace and hope. And one of those God moments was God gave her the word abundance after so much loss. It was like God is putting a promise over her life saying this season will end. And abundance is coming and that was very hope giving.

Angela: Yeah, that’s so good. Another thing similar to that is often when we feel like we’re in barren places, God is [00:33:00] making space to grow something new.

And so, I mean, I’ve heard that from several different people. I wish I could attribute it to one but just that empty season in the desert, I mean, God had people wandering in the desert, so they’d be ready for, the promised land. He had David running away from Saul so that he would be a better king when he became a king.

He was preparing him. He had Moses in the desert for a while right before he even went to lead the people out. So he brings us to dry, hard places often to let to get us to let go of the things that we don’t need to have in our life that are crowding out places and once he can get those all dry and empty, then he can actually plant them his plan and his seed and something beautiful can grow.

Kelly: That’s so encouraging. Nothing is wasted, as you said.

Angela: Nothing.

Kelly: Would you also say a word for somebody that is going through infertility? What hope do you want to offer them? What is one thing that [00:34:00] you would want to say to a woman who is going through infertility right now?

Angela: Yeah. First thing you need to know, you are not alone. You are not alone. And there are a bunch of women out there, but God is so near because He’s near to your broken heart. And because He is near if you can keep your eyes trained on Him, things change. I mean, you know, in Philippians where it says that, you know, don’t be anxious about anything, right before that, it says the Lord is near.

That’s why we don’t have to be anxious. That’s why we can offer our things, our offer our prayer requests with Thanksgiving because the Lord is near. And so, no, he’s near, no, he longs to have compassion. You know, he’s not wasting this time and just trust him in this time. It’s so hard because you feel so hurt.

You feel hurt by him. You feel sometimes you even feel betrayed. I mean, you could have. Whatever. He could have made [00:35:00] those babies implant in my uterus instead of in my tube. And he chose not to. He could have done something miraculous. My tube could have ruptured and the baby could have ended up latching on somewhere safe.

Anyway, you know, I mean, you can, we can come up with all the different crazy ways God could have, but he was clearing space. in my life to do something that was better to make me better, to help me and know him better. And he didn’t, and all of that time was never, ever wasted, even though it feels so barren and so lost and so useless.

He’s doing a work.

Kelly: Yes. Not 1 tear falls down your face. That is unnoticed by the Lord. He doesn’t waste 1 heartache. He doesn’t waste 1 groan of pain. He sees it all. He is right there with you. And I would just encourage our listeners to focus on the goodness of God.

And I have a couple of podcasts that I will also put in the show notes [00:36:00] about a woman who lost her son to suicide and God and her mom just said to her, we’re going to look for God’s goodness. And in this place of intense heartache and loss, God ministered to them in. Powerful, miraculous ways. It changes our perspective when we’re able to just look at the Lord and wrestle it out with him.

Tell him the truth about how unfair this is, how unjust it feels, how you’re so deeply hurt by what he’s allowing in your life. And then let him speak to you in that place

Angela: at some point, we’ve got to quit. Hollering and and slow down enough to listen. And that’s, that was one of the corrections he had to tell me.

He was like, okay, you’ve said all you’ve said, all you need to say now listen to me.

So good.

Kelly: And Angela, I think one of the ways we can prepare our hearts to listen to that word is to ask a question like, God, what do you want me to know about [00:37:00] this? Not why, but God, what do you want me to know about this?

What do you want me to know about your heart in this? I think I go ahead, please.

Angela: Oh yeah. I was just gonna say I had to start with why, because if I didn’t start there, I wasn’t gonna, I wasn’t gonna start the conversation at all. Yeah. And so, so asking why is okay, of course, but at some point we have to turn that.

And then and once we kind of get that out, that’s what he was kind of telling me is like, okay, you’ve asked why you’ve kind of thrown your little fit and not that it’s a fit. I mean, we have to get those that out that you’ve done that now. Now ask me what you need to really ask me Lord. What are you teaching me Lord?

Where are you Lord? Help me see your hand in this help me Yeah, I mean there is where God can truly minister that’s where you can start filling up the dry places and planting seeds of patience, planting seeds of joy, planting seeds of seeing his hand working. And then [00:38:00] that grows your perseverance.

It grows your trust. It grows all of those things. And then you start seeing this beautiful fruit in your life because you are willing to first start with the why, and then move on to What now?

Kelly: Absolutely. Is there

Anything else you want to share angela?

Angela: I would say, for those of us who are not dealing with hard times right now, I would love for us to do a better job of just Being present for the people who are grieving and suffering, and it’s uncomfortable because we don’t have a pretty bow to put on it. We don’t have any answers.

Necessarily. We just have a God that we know who is good. And so sometimes. we’re struggling, we just need somebody to say, I see you. I see that it’s hard for you right now. I’m praying for you. I mean, it could be as simple as a text. It could be as simple as, I want to take you out to coffee. If you want to talk about it, we can, if [00:39:00] you don’t want to talk about it, we can, but I want to just, I want to be present with you.

Just. Don’t be afraid just because things are hard. Don’t be afraid that you’re going to say the wrong thing Just sit with them be with them and then as God opens your mouth because he’s going to give you the words then you can say the things But come first to me To listen, come first, to be present, come first for all of those things so that person can feel loved and seen and that they know that not only is God present, but they also have friends in their life who are present in

Kelly: the middle of their grief.

Yeah. And if God doesn’t give you words to say, don’t say them. Just say, I love you.

Angela: That’s right. I love you. And I have no idea what to say, but I want to be here for you. And so let’s go get coffee and we can talk about our dogs., or whatever it is, right? Yes,

Kelly: that’s [00:40:00] so good. Angela. I really appreciate this conversation today.

I love bringing people to the heart of God. In their pain and helping them see that he sees them. He loves them. He knows them. And that this is not the end of their story. Thank you, Angela.

Rethinkingmythinking. com is where you can find my friend, Angela, and then be on the lookout for her book angela, thanks so much for being here today. You, Kelly.

If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great. If you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend or leaving a review, I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, kelly hall. org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for listening to the unshakable whole podcast.