Podcast

God’s Rescue from Marital and Spiritual Abuse | DianaWinkler

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Unshakable Hope Podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kelly Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions, such as how do I trust God’s heart when His ways and delays are breaking mine? We’ll hear from people just like you and me, who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected.

My prayer is that God would renew our hope in His Word and His love through these conversations.

Hey friends, I’m so glad you’re here today. Have you ever wondered if God was mad at you or thought that his love for you fluctuated according to your behavior? My guest today went on quite a difficult journey before she discovered the truth about God’s heart. She came to know Jesus as a teenager, but ended up in a cultish type spiritual environment that [00:01:00] maligned and twisted the character of God.

She experienced Spiritual and emotional abuse in every aspect of her life, including her marriage. She believed the lie that she needed to earn God’s love. So her relationship with him was performance based rather than based in grace. Diana Winkler will explain how God rescued her and led her to be an abuse advocate through her podcast, Wounds of the Faithful. She’s a singer songwriter and a certified mending the soul facilitator.

She’s also a friend who encouraged and helped me so much when I was trying to launch this podcast. So Diana, welcome to the show

Diana: oh, thanks for having me on the show, Kelly. I mean, between our crazy schedules, we finally found a time to, to get this interview done. I’m so excited.

Kelly: Me too.

, we met several years ago. When I was teaching the zoom Bible study at our church. And then when God was calling me to start a [00:02:00] podcast, I was overwhelmed by the technological aspects of all of that. And you were so encouraging to me and you spent so much time just answering my questions and teaching me when I was stressed out and just helping me trust that God would be faithful in this whole process.

Kelly: So I just want to say thank you publicly.

Diana: It was my pleasure because I’m not tech savvy either. And I had gone through that process of trying to figure out how to do all this when I started my podcast in 2020. I’m so glad that you pushed through because I knew that you had a powerful message and a story that that people need to hear. And you were on my podcast so y’all need to listen to her story on my show.

Kelly: Thank you. I did want to mention too, since you brought that up is that I’m creating a media page on my website and I’m going to put Diana’s podcast on there where I was interviewed and [00:03:00] several other podcasts where I’ve been interviewed, they will be there as well, Diana, I love it. If you could just explain your ministry to us and how God led you to launch a podcast

 

Diana: I’m an abuse survivor and I went through Mending the Soul, which is a small group for abuse survivors. . It’s a ministry of Celestia and Steven Tracy.

They’ve been on my podcast three times, by the way, and they have a trauma informed program for abuse survivors talking about all kinds of abuse, every type of abuse you can think of. She is a trauma counselor. He is a ethics and theology professor here in Phoenix, and when they had trauma in their own family, they decided to create this curriculum for people.

all over the world that use it to heal from abuse and trauma. [00:04:00] It’s a scriptural based program and a psychologically based program. So I went through that with my church. I was so impressed with it. , how God centered it was and how it really addressed the different types of abuse.

I had gone through some counseling and processing my trauma in the past, but it, there were some corners that were not, swept out and things that I had not wanted to deal with. . So going through that myself was life changing and I decided to become a facilitator myself. I was originally doing the group in our church.

And then of course, when COVID came, we moved online. , I was doing Mending the Soul on Zoom, and they were 16 weeks is the normal length of the program. But they needed more time. So we were going 18, 20 [00:05:00] weeks , they were still in their homes and not able to leave.

And they were sometimes in the homes with their abusers. After one of the classes that I ended in 2020, I decided to start a podcast I already know a lot of people to be guests on the show. I have a message. The people in my groups, they need more resources.

 

Kelly: You wanted to provide consistent encouragement for those who were abuse survivors because they were locked down in their homes.

So I love that you stepped into that place. Yes. And you have a lot of interviews on your show of people who have survived abuse and a lot of people who are educators and offer helps and resources in that arena, but you also have quite a lot of Bible study on your podcast as well.

You’re an abuse survivor on multiple levels. Not only did you come out of an abusive controlling marriage, but you also came out of a very spiritually controlling. Church. I’m [00:06:00] wondering if you could, first of all, just describe the types of abuse and control you endured in your marriage.

Diana: So, a lot of people think that abuse is just hitting. Or it’s violent and now those things do come into play, of course, but the common denominator of abuse is control and power.

And there are a lot of things that happen to us that are abusive that people don’t realize. There’s emotional abuse psychological abuse, financial abuse, spiritual abuse. Of course, physical abuse, like hitting and I experienced a lot of these things I did not know that I was in an abusive relationship because I was never hit.

My ex husband did not hit me, but he did everything else to me. A lot of manipulation, control, a lot of verbal [00:07:00] abuse a lot of taking away my choices. Telling me that I’m stupid or I don’t know what I’m talking about or the house wasn’t clean enough. Oh, I didn’t submit enough.

That was a big deal. And there was a lot of neglect going on too, as far as intimacy in marriage, he would use sex as a weapon against me. As a way to control me and use power over me. And this was all fueled by the church denomination that I went to.

I was a missionary stateside for many years, 13 years planting churches. . The church denomination taught , that you are not worth anything as a woman unless you are a mother and you serve a man’s needs. So that is a big part of the spiritual abuse.

They would take Bible [00:08:00] verses. That you are probably familiar with and they would twist them to oppress people.

Wow. So the cult like teachings that were at the root of all this were characterized by legalism and mind control, brainwashing kinds of things. It was actually, if you ever watched the Netflix special on the Duggar family, Bill Gothard’s teaching, The Institute of Basic Life Principles that was behind the legalistic church

and I know Diana, you did a response to that Netflix special as well on your podcast. So you told me earlier that a cult takes your choices away. What to wear even was controlled. Your husband called your clothes little house on the prairie dresses. Your value was belittled. You weren’t being taught or treated like a valuable, precious child of God, someone that Jesus died for and who he has a wonderful plan for.

There’s so much more we could say, but every single part of your life is being controlled.

Diana: Everything I did was [00:09:00] controlled.

Kelly: When you said yes to Jesus, when you understood and you just gave Jesus your heart, you were so excited.

You were transformed. And you knew that you were saved not by things that you did, but simply by the grace of God and that it was a gift. But in this church , they suddenly exerted all this control and had all these rules that were placed on you. It was so.

Odd and sad. And it just breaks my heart , that this happened to you. And one of the things you mentioned too, is that they were very controlling about your finances and they would have a certain day several times a year where they would say, okay, this is the week where your entire paycheck goes to the church and all the money that was crazy.

Diana: Yeah, you heard that on my story on my podcast. Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah.

Diana: It was called give it all Sunday. It was a church in New Jersey that and this was a poor church that we had, we were helping out at as youth pastors. And the pastor would say, yeah, you’re, you’re [00:10:00] all going to give your entire paycheck to the church this Sunday.

And you’re going to trust God for the rest. And it was like, what I’m supposed to tell the electric company or the landlord when they come for their. For the rent. Oh, I, I gave it all to the church. Yes. No, God, God does not require anything like that. He does not call us to do that. Yes, he may have the, the 10%, the tithe.

Some people believe in the tithe or supporting your, the church that you go to, but. He doesn’t tell you to not pay your bills and give it all to the church.

Kelly: No, it was very controlling. And so I’m just curious as you were enduring all of this and it was really, it was shaping your view of God and it was shaping your view of yourself, and so there were a lot of lies you began to believe about God and about yourself during that time.

And so can you just mention maybe just the lies that you believed about God and some of the other lies you believed about yourself?

Diana: [00:11:00] Well, I always believe, of course I knew about salvation and that was a pretty solid belief. I never was afraid that I lost my salvation. I was very secure in that, but

Kelly: I

Diana: believed that the more that I did, the better I looked in God’s eyes, like we were going to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night.

We did soul winning on Thursday night. We did the bus route on Saturday. I was in the choir and it was that whole mentality, like the more you go to church and all of these things that you put in your schedule, the more spiritual you are, and the better that you were on, on God’s list. Right? And that is the kind of lies that, we believe , you’re in that culture where you’re not loved for who you are.

Warts and all it’s I have to do all of these things. I have to look a certain [00:12:00] way I have to have my hair cut a certain way. I can’t wear makeup. I can’t wear nail polish I because those things are worldly and God will get mad at us for that Wow. Wow. That’s a huge lie that I think a lot of us, even those that aren’t in cults kind of fall for.

Kelly: Yeah. And so what you’re talking about is not living in the absolutely unconditional, unstoppable, beautiful love of God

you knew your salvation was secure but you absolutely did not know what it was to be loved. By God and to walk in that freedom and that beauty.

And so I’m just wondering, you teach this though on your podcast. So what is the message that you communicate to your listeners more than anything else about God?

Diana: Well, I think I stayed in my abusive marriage because I believed that if I left my abusive husband, [00:13:00] that he would no longer love me. I was still saved, but. I would not be loved anymore by God. He would punish me. I would suffer consequences for leaving my abusive ex husband. And that was a lie.

Kelly: That was a huge lie.

Diana: Yeah.

But. I teach on my podcast and in many of the soul groups that God is not going to stop loving you no matter what, and I had to learn that the hard way when being in, in an abusive marriage for 13 years, there was a day that I could not do this anymore.

I was like depressed and I was doing all the serving on the outside, doing all the right things, but on the inside I was depressed and I was just a shell of a person because being abused and my self worth , was almost nothing. Yeah. And yeah, [00:14:00] and I know , I’m leaving a lot of stuff out, but the night that I decided I wasn’t going to take this anymore, it was our 13th anniversary. And I went to bed crying . But I woke up the next day and, I had not been reading my Bible or praying anymore.

I think it was probably good five years that I had stopped praying and reading my Bible. And I I said, God, I don’t know. I don’t know what kind of consequences it’s going to be for me to leave this man, but I’m leaving before it destroys me and you do with me what you want. And I really expected that to happen and I called , my girlfriend up who knows everything about the situation and I’m crying she says, I’m tired of you calling and telling me about this abusive man.

You need to get out of there. And , I’m crying cause I’m like, Oh, I don’t know how, cause the church won’t let me leave. [00:15:00] They say it’s a sin. I’ll lose everything. She said, God’s not going to stop loving you no matter what you do, even if you do leave this, this terrible man. God still loves you and has a plan for you and you need to get out of there.

And that was like, light bulb moment for me that, you’re right.

Kelly: Yeah.

Diana: I know the Bible verses, neither, things present or things future shall separate us from the love of God. I’m probably not saying that verse correctly. The

Kelly: end of Romans eight, that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love of God and nothing can, no one and nothing can snatch us from the father’s hand.

It’s just so sad to me that you lived in that abuse for so, so long. And I’m thankful for your friend speaking some truth and breaking through the lies and how God used that to rescue you out of that place. And so I know that it took a long time for you to heal, [00:16:00] of course, but the Lord was so faithful to move you to a safe Haven, to heal your heart.

And you communicate all the time on your show that you are worthy and that you are a deeply loved child of God. God created you. And he loves you beyond your deepest imagining. You help people on this healing journey.

We’re going to just move into that Bible story, but I’m wondering before we do, if you could answer one question, you lived with abuse a long time and it became normal and you thought it wasn’t abuse because it wasn’t violent. And so you didn’t understand that it actually was abuse. So how can a person recognize the signs of marital abuse and spiritual abuse?

What’s the main thing that. They look for,

Diana: I would say the main thing that you should look for is control

Kelly: them

Diana: taking your choices away. Like what kind of car to drive, what [00:17:00] kind of clothes you can wear, what music you can listen to, who are your friends.

Are you allowed to hang out with your family?

Wow.

Abusers isolate their victims from their family because that’s where they get your support is your family and friends. So if you’re isolated, you won’t have that support. Or friends like I had to tell me the truth. You’re being abused. I would look for violence. Violent words, maybe they are not hitting you, but , they’re saying things in anger that usually are not your fault.

You didn’t make them angry, but they’re flying off the handle for , the stupidest thing, a scratch on the car, or you didn’t cook dinner perfectly, or, you spent too much money on Christmas gifts. Those sorts of things are red flags. Even when I was dating my ex, there were red [00:18:00] flags.

There was him flying off the handle at stupid little things, or you can’t, you can’t go here or constantly having to account for where they are.

Where are you? How come you’re not home yet? Or you need to call me as soon as you’re done work and you’re on your way home. That is a reality for a lot of victims and people don’t see that as abuse. They think, Oh, he cares about me. That’s not caring about you. It’s. Controlling you.

Kelly: Yeah,

Diana: of course, of course sexual abuse is also this was one thing they, they teach in the denomination I was from, that a wife has No right to say no to sex. They don’t believe in consent in marriage. So, that’s a red flag. If your spouse is not considering your needs.

Kelly: . I know that you have come alongside people that have been through quite severe abuse. But I [00:19:00] am so sorry that.. This has been a part of your life. I’m thankful for your ministry.

Diana: I’m thankful for the Lord saving me and getting me out of that. I’m so, so grateful for the Lord and providing a way out. And then I didn’t think that anything good would have come out of this.

And, and if you would ask me about having a ministry today that was related to what I went through. All those years, I would have thought you were nuts like, what, me, why would I do that? God has definitely given me this ministry.

Kelly: Well you couldn’t even read your Bible or pray. You were so deeply wounded and I’m so thankful to the Lord for rescuing you and healing your heart and showing you how deeply you are loved and how valuable you are to him. And then as after you healed, even giving you this ministry where you can offer hope, resources, and healing through God’s word

So we’re going to talk about one of your favorite stories in the Bible, [00:20:00] and that’s the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman in John four. And I know you love this story so much because you see Jesus showing value and honor to this woman and calling her to a high place of ministry even.

And it was in such huge contrast to what you had seen in your church.

So explain to us, how Jesus responses to to the Samaritan woman landed on your heart,

Diana: Wow, I love it so much because when I was in my other denomination, it was always preached about this woman is a sinner and Jesus came and offered her salvation because she was this horrible sinner.

It is so much more and it’s, so wonderful. I mean, I have a different relationship with God now because of grace. Instead of rules. And so now I read the Bible for myself and read [00:21:00] stories about these women in the Bible Jesus valued women more than anybody else.

People think, Oh, well, God’s anti woman Jesus is anti women. It’s like, Oh no, you need to read the riches of God’s word for yourself and see that. Jesus loved this woman, and you have to look at the culture of Jesus day, the Samaritans were a hated race and you guys can Google the history of the Samaritans, but they were pretty much a half breed of, of Jewish and Gentile mixed races, and they even worshiped in different places.

And you did as a Jew, you did not. You did not hang out with the Samaritan, and they didn’t hang out with the Jews. And, and this was such a big rift that the Jews would walk the long way to Jerusalem rather than go through Samaria, which was much shorter because They didn’t want to [00:22:00] interact together and Jesus took that road through Samaria on purpose to meet this woman at the well.

I wish we knew her name.

Kelly: Oh, me too.

Diana: I would love to know her name, but yes, Jesus met this woman and

way to see her to meet her because he had a plan. And secondly, Jewish women we’re usually in. The morning drawing water and she happened to be drawing water in the afternoon.

Jewish men did not talk to women who were not in their immediate family. That was just a cultural thing. The disciples were really surprised that Jesus was speaking to a woman of Samaria. Let’s talk about why she was getting water in the heat of the day. Jesus knew that she had more than one husband and she was married more than once.

And the man that she [00:23:00] lived with was not her husband. Now he , wanted her to know that he was the Messiah. That’s why he pointed all of those things out. He knew her life. Women were not allowed to get divorced in Jesus day. This is something a lot of people don’t understand that this was not a woman , that left all of these husbands.

The husband’s left her husband’s divorced her and she was left to fend for herself

Kelly: Every time I read her story, I am filled with so much compassion because. She was rejected. What I see is she was rejected again and again, and again and again.

Yes. ’cause like you said, a woman cannot divorce a man. She was rejected and divorced for, who knows, . And in that time were allowed to divorce a woman if she wasn’t a good cook or if she couldn’t have children. And so, Mm-Hmm, . It was, it’s very heartbreaking. And when I think about this long history of rejection, it makes me wonder what her childhood was like, [00:24:00] because I wonder, did her, was her dad kind of the same way? I mean, who knows how much rejection and abuse this woman endured. We don’t know. We don’t know. The Bible does not tell us. But it does just break my heart when I see her story and her coming in the afternoon to get water at the well implies that, there was possibly a lot of rejection from the women

Diana: Sure.

Kelly: , but the way Jesus. Draws her out Jesus is so full of compassion, like the way he draws her out is so amazing to her because this man that is sitting there asking her questions is treating her with respect .

And I just always imagine that. When she looks in his eyes that there are just rivers of compassion and love flowing out over her. I mean, she has no idea what’s going on, but you can see in her responses that there is a yearning for something more.

I mean, she [00:25:00] really does not understand what Jesus is telling her, but that she remains in the conversation, which astounds me.

Diana: Right. Yeah, she was shunned regardless of what caused the divorce. It was, this big scarlet letter , on your chest, and you had to go draw water in the afternoon and then she meets Jesus.

, that was a divine appointment for sure. And Jesus saw her worth as a woman and offered this living water to her. This was His salvation, what is this living water? So I don’t have to come here to the well anymore. I want to know about this living water and, when she’s talking to Jesus, she goes and tells her village about Jesus, come and meet this man who told me everything I’ve ever done. And they came to see for themselves. They believed what she said, and they came to see for themselves this messiah, the promised messiah.

So, she [00:26:00] was one of the first. Evangelist that Jesus sent out a woman evangelist and many of those people in her village believed so Jesus validated women more than anybody in the Bible no kidding yes God is not against women as some people teach look at the examples of Mary, Martha, Magdalene the woman with the issue of blood the woman caught in adultery, Jairus’s daughter, I mean, Jesus spoke to them and treated them with compassion and love and like a person, not like, Oh, a second class citizen.

Kelly: Right Jesus was counter cultural. He exalted women. He lifted them up. He valued them, which was just completely against the culture at that time. It’s just so beautiful, and like you said, she became the first female evangelist to [00:27:00] the Samaritans. And it’s so interesting because she had been certainly rejected by men time and time and time again.

And yet she became a leader of men in this story. It is just so crazy how , the men and the women in this village gave their lives to Jesus. Because of her testimony and the other thing that I think is so cool. Is that in verse 26 of John 4 is that Jesus declares out loud very clearly for the 1st time that he is the Messiah.

I mean, he just says it. Plain as day, he’s been quite evasive in his other descriptions of who he is at times but he very clearly states that he is the Messiah to her. The very first time he does it so clearly is to a woman and it’s so powerful and so beautiful.

Diana: Yes. So that is one of the many reasons why I love this story and just rediscovering this wonderful [00:28:00] woman.

And you guys really need to visit that story yourself and some of these other women in the Bible who are valued and loved and you are valued and loved by God.

Kelly: Yes.

God did not cause your abuse. God does not. Want you to be abused or treated poorly, and he has a better plan for your life. And I know you’re scared to step out in faith and do that. I was scared. It’s, it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my whole life was to leave my abuser.

Diana: But now looking back, I’m so glad that I did. And there is help for you out there. If you need help in taking that next step of. Leaving getting some resources , I can help you with those resources. There’s a lot more out there on the internet and groups to assist you [00:29:00] financially, if you need that, or with legal advice, there are ways if you would step out in faith and.

Maybe you’ve already left your abuser, and you’re just still reeling from your abuse And you don’t know who you are as a believer. You don’t know what you believe You don’t know what God thinks of you. We do have resources to help you Discover who is the real Jesus? Who is the real God of the Bible?

Yeah. And , we can get you resources to help you process your trauma. Find out what does God really think of me? What plan does he have for my life? Again, that is a challenge because a lot of people don’t want to face the trauma they went through.

They just want to forget it. But to move forward in victory, we have to go through the fire. The Lord will be with you through that fire and I’ll be [00:30:00] with you and I have people. That will be with you to help you through that hard transition of healing is it is a journey. It’s not, I am not suddenly healed from everything that’s ever happened to me.

In fact, Kelly knows that things come up in my life that trigger me,

But I have the tools to. Deal with those. I have people to support me. I have God’s word. I have my pastor who supports me. I have now I have a loving husband that cares about me and treats me with respect and love.

And I want that for you. So reach out to me if you need help. If I can’t help you, I will get. You the help you need. I know a lot of people . Yeah,

Kelly: absolutely. And the name of your website.

Diana: It is dsw ministries.org. Okay. Is my website and my email is Diana DIAN [00:31:00] [email protected]. I have a YouTube channel, DSW Ministries.

I have the podcast. The Wounds of the Faithful podcast, and we didn’t even talk about the music, but. As a singer songwriter, I, I write songs about healing from abuse and trauma and I have some music on my website too.

Kelly: And you have a recording studio in your home. Diana, thanks so much for joining us today.

Diana: This has been a really great conversation and I’m so blessed to be your friend and thanks for having me on today.

Kelly: Yeah. Thanks for sharing your hope in a really difficult situation.

If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great if you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend or leaving a review. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, kellyhall. org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for [00:32:00] listening to the Unshakable Hope Podcast.