Podcast

Finding Acceptance in a Culture of Comparison: Heather Holleman

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Heather: That when children come to the planetarium to view the night sky, they all run in and they race to the front of the planetarium.

Heather: To get the front row, to get the best seats, and the guide has to say, children all seats provide equal viewing of the universe. No matter where you sit, you will not miss any part of the show. Now I burst into tears because I was thinking I am missing out. And the Lord was saying to me, no, it doesn’t matter where you’re seated.

Kelly: Welcome to the Unshakable Hope podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kelly Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions such as, how do I trust God’s heart when his ways and delays are breaking mind? We’ll hear from people just like you and me who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected my prayers, that God would renew our hope and his word and his love [00:01:00] through these conversations.

Kelly: Hey guys, I am so glad you’re here today. If you’ve ever found yourself exhausted from a pursuit of your own version of perfection, I believe today’s topic will be an exhilarating breath of fresh air. My guest today, sharing from our own journey will be inviting us to walk out on the fight for acceptance stop comparing ourselves to others, and she’s gonna explain how we can be freed from cycles of shame, all through a deeper understanding of one verse.

Kelly: One verse in scripture that transformed and upended her own life. So let me introduce you to my guest, Heather. Dr. Heather Holloman is an associate teaching professor of advanced writing at Penn State. She’s a speaker and author. I wish I could have been in one of her college classes. I love her style.

Kelly: She’s written 10 books, including the bestseller we’re gonna be discussing today, Seated with [00:02:00] Christ, living Freely in a Culture of Comparison. I’d encourage you to check out the books on her website, especially this fiction series she has for youth on the topic we’ll be discussing today. Heather also serves in the Professor Ministry of Cru.

Kelly: She and her husband have two daughters and three cats. When she’s not writing her teaching, Heather is growing plum trees, looking for turtles in the woods, or gathering with friends for dinner and a movie. Heather, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here.

Heather: I am so happy to be with you. This is gonna be a great conversation.

Heather: I can’t wait.

Kelly: I can’t wait either. We had so much fun previously. We had to stop ourselves so we could get on with the recording. I wanna mention that a friend of mine, we are going through this book of yours, seated with Christ Living Freely in a Culture of Comparison. We’re doing the Bible study together that you include at the end of each chapter, and it has been very, very.

Kelly: Encouraging. Well, before we get onto some other [00:03:00] questions, I wanna tell, I wanna share with my audience that your students call you a walking exclamation point.

Heather: They do. I bring a lot of energy and I love grammar. It’s unusual. I get really excited when students use a semicolon properly or when they use a particularly vivid verb, so they do call me that.

Kelly: I love that so much. So I want you to just describe your own struggles. We love stories on this podcast, so it’s beautiful for us when we hear somebody’s story and understand those struggles and we can identify. , Walk us through some of those things and how God spoke to you.

Heather: Well, the, the biggest struggle of my life was really jealousy and comparison.

Heather: And as I was turning 40, so about 10 years ago, I was just not free. I was really thinking I kind of miss the life I was supposed to have. I was comparing myself to the wealth of over, uh, other women, you know, the beauty of other women and the achievements of other women, and I remember. It was a summer day in late July, and I was out in Colorado for my staff training [00:04:00] with Campus Crusade for Christ Now Crew.

Heather: And I read Ephesians and God used a single verb to set me free from jealousy and comparison. So I was reading Ephesians two, which I think is. The best chapter in the entire Bible other than Romans eight. And I read that God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

Heather: And I realized I had this picture in my mind of being seated at the greatest table with the greatest king. And that day, Kelly, I realized. I am not living like I have a seat at the table. I’m living like I’m fighting for a seat at the table. And that’s the day that the Holy Spirit really began to heal me and change everything about me.

Heather: Wow. A single passage of scripture. This word is so powerful.

Kelly: Yes. In verse you probably knew and memorized

Heather: well, I had read Ephesians two so many times before, but what was so powerful is, you know, I love verbs and I’m [00:05:00] a grammar expert. What I couldn’t. Get over was that, it’s a past tense verb, even in the, you know, Greek, it’s this idea we have been seated already with Christ and that it, it will be true in full, you know, when we see him in eternity.

Heather: But that Paul was really picturing himself in a different reality. And he says it again in Colossians, you know, set your minds not. On earthly things, but where Christ is like set your minds on things above where Christ is seated at the right-handed God. So I pictured, I was like, okay, I don’t know what I’m supposed to picture here, but what would happen if I really believed I was at this table that my heart always longed for?

Heather: And I even made a list of all the ways I’ve been fighting for a seat at the table. I thought, oh, if only I, you know, had more money or. More achievement or all these things, or if I were thinner or prettier, I’d finally have a seat at the table. But that day it was as if the Holy Spirit was saying to me, [00:06:00] you already have a seat at the table.

Heather: You’re longing for. Start living like a seated person. And what’s so powerful about this message is I think it really healed in me the memory I had of the very first time I knew I wasn’t. Invited to sit at the popular table, and that’s why when I speak on SITA with Christ, so many women, immediately, either they start crying or they’ll even, you know, put their hand over their heart because the wound is so deep they remember.

Heather: Usually around 12 years old when they realize they don’t have a seat at a certain table. So God had to do some healing in me. Really, that began when I was 12. Like you’ve been fighting for a seat at the table, really all your life. So now let’s picture yourself seated with Jesus and it’s gonna change everything about you.

Kelly: I love that so much for so long. I have read that verse and I had, there was one seat, one table that I never felt like I fit in, and that was the ministry table. I just felt like [00:07:00] I became a young person, a young girl. When I’m around these ministry leaders and I thought I’m a ministry leader, my husband would look at me and go.

Kelly: I don’t understand what is wrong with you. Why can’t you see yourself? Who you for who you are in Christ? And I would read that scripture. You’re seated in Christ. And I would hear it and I would say it, but I never could understand what that really meant. Yes. So I gravitated toward this book so much. I loved your description of the round table.

Heather: Well, the reason why that, the image that I’m gonna tell you about matters so much is because when I was becoming, really experiencing so much healing through Ephesians two, six, you know, in my forties, my daughter, my youngest daughter started middle school and she was just depressed.

Heather: Her stomach hurt. She didn’t wanna go to school anymore, and I’ll never forget, she said to me one day I was up in my office. Writing down kind of what the Lord was teaching me about Ephesians two. [00:08:00] And Sarah came and she said, mom, I need to talk to you. And she’s crying. And she said, I can’t find a seat in the lunchroom, you know?

Heather: And I was like, Sarah, what? What do you mean? Where are your friends? And her friends decided that she wasn’t popular enough. She wasn’t pretty enough. She was too awkward. And they excluded her from that table, and she was sitting alone in the art room. She’s crying. I’m starting to cry, but here’s why the image of the round table matters.

Heather: Read Ephesians two to her and I said, Sarah, look, I’m gonna read a passage of scripture to you, but it’s, it’s to you. But it’s really hard to imagine. It’s really hard to picture. It’s really deep theologically. Well, I read Ephesians to her, Ephesians two, and when I got to the part that she’s been raised with Christ and seated with him, I said, look.

Heather: When you walk into that lunchroom, you don’t need to worry about those popular girls. Jesus chose you. He chose you for his table. And you know, we’re both crying together. And I said, look, if it’s hard for you to picture, we had been watching the BBC’s rendition of King [00:09:00] Arthur in the Knights of the Round Table.

Heather: It was called Merlin. If you know anything about our theory and legend, there’s gonna be a moment where King Arthur calls all of the knights, but it’s a round table because at that table, nobody is superior or inferior. That’s why it’s round. There’s no head. Everyone’s there. They all are secure. They have their own position.

Heather: And so Sarah and I were watching that scene together, and in that, in, in that. Show, you know, the rich, the, the poor, the old, the young. It does, you know, all kinds of backgrounds. G Guinevere is even called to the table. I said, Sarah, that’s a good picture for you. You can picture yourself seated there. And what’s beautiful is they’re all devoted to the king and devoted to Camelot.

Heather: And the end of that scene, it says, you’re now part of the most royal army. The, the, the most noble army the world has ever known. So it gave Sarah this image of confidence and security. So the round table’s important ’cause a lot of women feel regularly [00:10:00] inferior to people, but there’s also women who feel superior to other people.

Heather: ’cause maybe they’re at the table of wealth and achievement. Maybe they have a great ministry that’s equally as dangerous. So that’s why it’s a round table.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. I’m wondering if you could come up with some other language. I know you love language, so I didn’t prep you for this question, but I thought you’d love it.

Kelly: So the word seated, it’s past tense. This is where we are. It’s a round table, but can you come up with some other words, verbs, adjectives, whatever that might describe what it’s. Feels like and what it means to be at this table where we have felt excluded in the past.

Heather: Well, it, the words that come to mind are, this is such a picture of belonging.

Kelly: Yes,

Heather: inclusion like you’re included here, but it’s also a table of deep purpose. Here’s what I mean. The end of Ephesians two says that [00:11:00] you are created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for you to do. So when you’re seated at that table, you’re secure, you belong. You’re not exhausting yourself trying to fight for a seat at the table.

Heather: So it’s this table of profound freedom as well. And in the book, I talk about the ways you’re gonna fight for a seat at the table. You’re gonna think, oh, I need to be prettier. That’s appearance. I need to be wealthier. That’s affluence. I need to achieve more. That’s achievement. So we call it the three A’s.

Heather: So when you’re freed up from that, you’re gonna have so much energy to then do the good works God’s prepared for you to do, and you don’t compare them to anyone else. When you’re at that table, it’s so free because you’re just picture yourself. Just looking at Jesus being like, all right. What do you have for me today?

Heather: Like what or what do you have for me this year or the next 10 years? And you don’t compare that work to the pastor’s wife, your sister, other women in the neighborhood. So many women are [00:12:00] thinking either I’m not doing enough, or I don’t know what my purpose is. Well, when you’re seated, just think belonging, accepted, and purpose.

Heather: And it just kind of sets you free from jealousy, comparison, worried about your achievements. So it’s kind of this safe. Place you can be in and women write, you know, they write me letters. They tell me what they’re picturing, what they’re experiencing. And probably the number one theme is acceptance.

Heather: Mm-hmm. Because they’re fighting, they’re fighting to belong somewhere, and they don’t feel accepted. They’ve been rejected by someone. So,

Kelly: you know, I was just thinking this morning about David because he was rejected by his family. Okay. We’re having this big anointing party. God’s arranged it, Samuel’s coming.

Kelly: They don’t even think to invite him. He’s not even thought of like he’s completely overlooked and dismissed. But yet in the wilderness as a shepherd God, he finds his place of belonging in God.

Heather: Wow. [00:13:00] He does, and then one of the first images you get of the table is David showing kindness to Mephibosheth.

Heather: Yeah. I, if you wanna look at kind of the theological continuity of this idea of having a seat at the table, you’re gonna see it with Mephibosheth. He’s, he’s essentially an enemy of the king and he not only gets a seat at the table, but if you look at that, those passages, David says. You know, I’m gonna, you’re gonna sit here all the days of your life, and it even says, I’m gonna restore to you.

Heather: Everything that was lost. So it’s this place of restoration, and you see it again in Psalm 23 where, God says he prepares a table for us in the presence of, you know, our enemies. Think about the wedding supper of the lamb. You get all these little. Moments in scripture where it’s almost like the Holy Spirit keeps whispering.

Heather: There’s a table for you. There’s a seat for you. Stop fighting so hard and take your seat.

Kelly: Oh, that’s so powerful. I really, that really speaks to me. There is another [00:14:00] place in your book, there’s so many insightful analogies you share, but here’s another one I loved. From the planetarium? Yes. Do you remember the lesson you learned from the planetarium?

Heather: Yes. Now this is so powerful. Now, this is a vulnerable moment here, Kelly, because I really, I came from a wealthier family and I married a man and we decided to go into full-time ministry. So I was really struggling, you know, thrift store wardrobe, used cars that are falling apart, you know, we’re renting a hou.

Heather: Just I felt poor. I felt like we didn’t have enough. I felt like. I was suffering and missing out on all these experiences, and I found this book in the public library, and I don’t even remember the name of the book. I was just looking at the epigram at the beginning of the book and the, I found this quote and it made me burst into tears, and the quote says, all seats provide equal viewing of the universe.

Heather: And it said. Guide Hayden Planetarium. So I contacted the Hayden Planetarium because there was something about this [00:15:00] quote. I just was crying. I was like, what does this quote mean? And the media director at the planetarium told me that when children come to the planetarium to view the night sky, there’s a whole presentation, whatever they all run in and they race to the front of the planetarium.

Heather: To get the front row, to get the best seats, and the guide has to say, children all seats provide equal viewing of the universe. No matter where you sit, you will not miss any part of the show. Now I burst into tears because I was thinking I am missing out. And the Lord was saying to me, no, it doesn’t matter where you’re seated.

Heather: It doesn’t matter what your seat looks like, where you are in life, you have equal access to all of God’s power, peace, provision, joy, anything you need, you have, and you’re not gonna miss anything. Now, how can I say that? Think about where Paul was. Paul was most [00:16:00] likely writing from a room in prison, yet he experienced himself in a different reality and was not missing anything.

Heather: All seats provide equal view of the universe. Now, listeners may think, well, that’s nice, but what if I’m really suffering? How can you say that? Well, that’s why when Moody Publisher said, is there anyone in the world that you would want to write the forward to your book? I was like, yes, I wanna contact Joni Erickson Tada.

Heather: And if you know her, she was in a diving accident, um, and was forever bound to be in a wheelchair, paralyzed for her whole life. But I remember she said she would rather be seated in her wheelchair knowing Jesus than be given a chance to walk without him.

Kelly: Wow. It

Heather: was so powerful because wherever Jesus is, it doesn’t matter your seat.

Heather: It doesn’t matter your physical seat. You have everything you need when you have him, because he’s where life is. He’s where abundant life is. He’s [00:17:00] everything you need. So it really did kind of break open. My heart to think I have kind of been feeding on a lie this whole time. Yeah. Like what is abundant life?

Heather: What is it? So all seats provide equal view of the universe. If you think you’re missing out on something or something’s been denied you, or God’s not answering your prayer for something, just think no matter where you sit, you have equal access to all the riches of God’s kingdom and everything that he wants for you, and you’re not gonna miss anything.

Kelly: Mm. It’s so powerful. You could spend the rest of your life just meditating on that

Heather: one. I know. I know. It’s true. And I have to rete myself every day because these temptations come every day. Think about it. Eve was in paradise. And the serpent was able to convince her that she was missing something. So we have an enemy of our soul that’s constantly like, you’re missing something.

Heather: You’re in the wrong seat. Here’s a better seat. You know what I mean? Absolutely. There’s temptation to fight.

Kelly: I was blown away when I saw [00:18:00] that Johnny Erickson, Todd had written the Forward for this book because she’s been such a mentor of mine. I mean, I think when I was a teenager, I already knew her story.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. And I was reading her story. I was so impacted by her choice and to follow Jesus and the way God transformed her life. And just because you brought her up, I’m gonna read what she said, one sentence that she wrote in the forward. She said, my wheelchair became the prison that set me free. I learned how to grieve my losses in a healthy way and move forward in hope.

Kelly: I kept my eyes riveted on Jesus and it made all the difference in the world. Yes.

Heather: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And when you’re seated with him, one of my favorite things God showed me is I was like, well, what is it like at this table? I was really struggling with my appearance and really fighting hard to think, oh gosh, I have to lose weight.

Heather: I have, you know, whatever. Just regular aging things.

Kelly: Yeah,

Heather: and I love in Psalm 35 [00:19:00] where the psalmist says, those who look to him are radiant. It. Their faces are never covered with shame. So when you’re seated with Jesus, you’re adoring him, and then what happens is, is you’re just fixated on him and you’re radiating the beauty of the Lord wherever you go.

Heather: So God really set me free from struggling to find a seat at the table with like the beautiful people, or I just need to improve my appearance. That really helped me.

Kelly: That was very impactful for me too. I can remember once when I was younger, my aunt saying, Kelly, your one sister is beautiful, and your other one is popular and you’re smart.

Kelly: Oh, oh. And you’re like, oh, okay. Maybe that was supposed to be a compliment, but all I heard was I’m not pretty or popular. Thank you so much.

Heather: Oh, that’s terrible. How old were you? Do you remember where you were when No, I was in high,

Kelly: high school. I was about 16, 17.

Heather: Yeah. So I would say at that moment you were like, yep, I don’t have a seat with the beautiful people.

Heather: I don’t have a, you know, we, there are these [00:20:00] tables, these metaphorical tables in our mind where we’re like, yeah, I don’t have a seat there. And you begin to grieve it and be sad about it. And there’s healing that Jesus wants to do for people with our like, look, come to the best table. Come to the table.

Heather: Your heart’s been waiting for all this time. And you get to picture yourself there with Jesus. And that great work of healing begins to happen.

Kelly: I’d love for you to share about how God transformed your vision of yourself through the stories in that chapter about appearance.

Kelly: Some of the stories you shared in that particular chapter really impacted me.

Kelly: They were so personal and. Help me see things differently. So would you share some of those?

Heather: Well, I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t have some kind of insecurity about how they look. And for me it was always my nose. And I even had a guy make fun of me on the school bus ’cause he thought the pores on my nose were so big.

Heather: I mean, I really struggled with my nose, my skin, you know, the way my body looked, all of that. [00:21:00] And, um, in college, as I was thinking through, okay. You know, God, I don’t wanna feel this way about myself anymore. It was a pastor’s wife who said to me, Heather, I just want you to know that you have a very loving face.

Heather: And I remember thinking, that’s odd. Why did she say that? I mean, I’d rather have her say I was beautiful or gorgeous. But she said, no, you have a loving face. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, when you look at people. I can see that God is loving people through your face. Wow. I it, to this day, it is the best compliment I’ve ever received.

Heather: And the reason why is it changed how I entered a room and it changed how I thought about. You know this table that I’m sitting at with Jesus, I go out into the world and I think God love, help me love people through my face. So then you kind of take your eyes off yourself. But God is so kind because I struggled with my nose all those [00:22:00] time, you know, all those years.

Heather: And then when I was 25 years old, my first. Second date with my husband. I can’t remember. Um, he wanted to share the feature that he most thought was so adorable about me and attractive about me. And I was like, oh, he is gonna say my eyes or my hair. No. He was like, Heather, I just want you to know I love your nose.

Heather: I think it’s the most adorable, precious nose. He was literally attracted to the very thing. That I most hated about myself, and I thought the Lord did that as sort of a little gift from heaven to kind of heal me once and for all. Because God loves everything about us and is delighted by us and you know, he made us so we don’t need to worry about these things anymore.

Kelly: I love that so much. He’s so creative and kind to just speak to the deepest need of our heart. That’s right. That just extravagant. Well, you and your husband were well on your way. You may have already [00:23:00] discussed this, but y’all were on your way to achieving your goals of success and money, right? And all this stuff, and that’s what you had grown up in.

Kelly: But when God called the two of you into ministry, you were also pregnant and it was, oh my gosh. Huge adjustment.

Heather: It. I was really depressed. I was really, I had postpartum depression in general, but it began kind of in that pregnancy. I just was sort of, kind of in a mental health crisis too, because everything I valued about myself was sort of like taken away, but God really used that to help me realize that all the things I was trusting in.

Heather: Weren’t where life was found. It wa it’s not gonna nourish your soul to be rich. It’s not gonna nourish your soul to be more attractive. And so what I realized through all of that was kind of where abundant life is really found. And I also had to trust the Lord as my provider. Like I would memorize verses that, you know, where, where the Lord says, or Paul, right.[00:24:00]

Heather: My God will meet all of your needs according to his glorious, richest in Christ Jesus. And I was crying in an airport about this. Like, okay, we’re gonna be poor. We were going off to our missionary training, and God really used first Timothy chapter six because it talks about not setting your hope. On riches it, it says not to do that.

Heather: It says, instead, trust God who richly provides all things for your enjoyment. And I circled that word enjoyment because it doesn’t say God will meet your basic needs. It says that God’s gonna provide things for you to enjoy in your life. And I began to trust Jesus as my provider because he made me. He knows what’s gonna delight me.

Heather: And after all these years, I’m turning 50 this year. It’s not the fine art and the fine dining and the whatever it is you’re thinking is gonna what wealthy people do. Imagine what you’re thinking, oh, if I had this vacations, whatever, that’s not what brings joy. Mm-hmm. And God knows how to delight me, [00:25:00] like the riches of nature.

Heather: You know, I’m growing a peach tree, or I love the little bunnies running around. You know, things that don’t cost anything. And then I found a quote by Tolstoy that says, wealth is the number of things one can do without. So the wealthiest person in the room is the woman who needs the least because she’s so secure in the Lord.

Heather: So anyway, and I do a lot of social science research about flourishing and happiness, and really what you’re looking for is that seat at the table where you feel connected to people. All the social science research talks about the importance of warm connections with people as being the foundation of a happy life.

Heather: And when you’re seated with Christ, you’re really set free. To love people. You’re not comparing yourself, you’re not trying to achieve wealth. You’re just seated with him and connected to other people. So, yeah, God did really set me free. Sometimes I get jealous, but I remember that all seats provide equal viewing of the universe.

Heather: But [00:26:00] you know, we have a Instagram. You gotta guard your heart if, if you’re someone who’s gonna struggle with all the summer vacation pictures, you don’t need to look at that. Focus on the work. Do you struggle with that ever, Kelly? I’m sure you do. You have to if you’re alive. Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I struggled the most was when our kids were struggling the most, like we were trying to get them to launch.

Kelly: They were at the age where all my friends kids were launching. But yeah, because of their special needs, because of their illness of Lyme disease that we didn’t even know they had because of some neurodivergence things, they were quite delayed, what looked normal. I would open up these pictures and I would just hurt it.

Kelly: Back then though, it was the Christmas letters that came in the mail that would make my husband and I roll our eyes and just. Say, oh my gosh. Everywhere we look, yeah. We are just being reminded of losses and griefs and Yeah, headache and hard things that we, that [00:27:00] we can’t, we just can’t compare. We can’t compare.

Kelly: This is the story. God has given us this. That’s right. He is gonna provide for our needs. This story is gonna be beautiful. It’s gonna be redemptive. So I can’t look at other people’s stories in that way. Yes.

Heather: And that’s the seat that he gave you, and that’s the seat for your children. No. Even the way we talk to women about what they’re going through in life reveals a lot about what we value.

Heather: I mean, I was speaking to a bunch of wealthier women, high achieving women at a conference, and they asked me what my oldest daughter wanted to do, and I said, oh, she’s really excited about one day opening a bakery. And Kelly, their faces fell and they said. Oh my gosh, we’re so sorry. How are you? How are you handling that?

Kelly: Oh dear.

Heather: And I thought to myself, you know, what is it? That’s why I’m so excited, Kelly, if you do write a book about surrendering normal, every [00:28:00] community, everywhere you go, there’s a standard for what it means to be seated at the table and to be aware in your own neighborhood, your own community, what are these core values that people have, and then you have a chance to enter into that community and speak the kind of words of actual life where Jesus is like, look.

Heather: You’re seated at the best table. You don’t have to exhaust yourself with these standards of success, these standards of, you know, affluence or even beauty, depending you may be in a culture where a lot of the women, it’s constant improvement. You don’t want any wrinkles, you don’t want any gray hair. I love just studying the culture around me and thinking, what are these messages that I’m getting and what does Jesus say about what it means to have a seat with him?

Kelly: Hmm. One of the stories I will continue to remember is how your face radiated the love of Jesus. As I’m getting older and more wrinkles are appearing, I am reminding myself, but you radiate [00:29:00] Jesus love and that’s the most important thing.

Heather: It’s, and most people we love in our life aren’t. If you think about the people who you love the most in your life.

Heather: You’re the first thing you’re, you’re gonna say, it’s not gonna be, oh, they’re so attractive. It’s usually a grandma or an older person or maybe a mentor that you had or think about people that we value in the Christian world, it’s not because they’re attractive, it’s because they’re wise. You know, it’s a whole different thing that we value.

Kelly: Yes. That’s so good. Well, in one of your LA later chapters, you look at four powerful questions. Yes, yes. And hard questions. But wow. These are questions that shape your life. And the first one you talk about is this, Is knowing Jesus better than anything, whoa. That just cuts to the, the depths of our heart, right.

Heather: It does. I remember exactly where I was sitting in church and I, it was a moment I, I was just suffering with jealousy. I [00:30:00] think it was Mother’s Day and everyone was like bragging about their Mother’s Day brunches, or their matching Mother’s Day outfits they got with their popular and well-dressed children.

Heather: You know, it was, I was just sitting in church thinking. All these things I want, you know, I don’t have, and I remember saying to myself, I need to ask myself some really hard questions. And that’s the first question that came to mind is Jesus better than all of this? Wow. Because if I have him, I have everything in him are hidden.

Heather: All. The riches, you know what I mean? He, he’s so marvelous that when you have him, you have everything your heart wants. So it also speaks to the root of idolatry because when I ask myself that question, what do I believe is actually better than knowing Jesus? So that’s a good journal prompt that will reveal idolatry.

Heather: So that was the first question.

Kelly: Do you wanna [00:31:00] elaborate on some of the other ones? Do you remember what they are? Well,

Heather: sure. I mean the one about will I live the life God asks me to, I had to really say to the Lord, uh, and this gets dark. I mean, your listeners are gonna be like, wow, that went dark. I mean, think about what you’re most afraid of.

Heather: Would you still follow Jesus if he said to you, I may take your husband, your children may suffer you. What? Make a list. What are you afraid of? If you’re able to say to Jesus, I will follow you, even if what’s gonna happen is massive freedom and surrender because you trust him. A lot of us don’t trust him and we don’t wanna live the life he asks us to because we don’t trust him and we don’t trust him as the our Lord that, that he’s the one we worship.

Heather: So he has the right to do whatever he wants with us. So I think of Romans 12, like, can I offer my body as a living? Sacrifice. Holy and pleasing to God. That’s my [00:32:00] spiritual act of worship. So am I willing to follow the Lord where he leads? That’s a hard question. I love the question, is there anything in my life that doesn’t please God?

Heather: Because a lot of us have become, um, I don’t know. Not sensitive to maybe ways we’re not in step with God’s spirit. Now, this is not condemning because there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but there’s a lot of times the Holy Spirit convicts me, like, why am I watching that thing on Netflix?

Heather: It doesn’t honor God. Or why am I in this friendship that’s not. Doing good things to me or like whatever it is. And when I lead women in retreats, I just have them check in with the Holy Spirit. Is there anything in my life that’s keeping me out of step with your spirit? And you can even look at Galatians five.

Heather: It’s predictable. The deeds of the flesh are obvious. The the fruit of the spirit is obvious. And so it could be like I’ve had women say, yeah, I’m drinking too much. Or when you, when you asked me that I knew that God [00:33:00] doesn’t want me at this job anymore or. I’ve, you know, whatever it is. And that’s what’s beautiful.

Heather: Just agree with God. Yeah, let’s get this out. So that’s great. And yeah. And then the last question is, are you available for God to send you to be his spokesperson? My favorite verb in scripture is seeded, but my second favorite verb comes from John 2021, as the father has sent me.

Heather: So I send you that if you have your whole life be shaped by seated and sent. You’re gonna have a marvelous life of adventure with Jesus. So are you willing for God to send you,

Kelly: oh, those are so good. I wanna step into just two of those. The second one. What was the second one you said?

Heather: Will, I love the life God asks me to you.

Heather: Could you actually probably have so much wisdom here, because I am sure that when you got married. You were not thinking you were gonna have three children that had high needs, right? That, that your life did not go the way that maybe you pictured. So when, when I ask you that [00:34:00] question like, will, will you live?

Heather: Like if you picture Jesus saying, Kelly, will you live the life I ask you to, even if, you know, I burst into tears, I burst into tears when I pictured Jesus asking me that.

Kelly: Right?

Heather: Because I knew like, whose life is this? Is it his?

Kelly: Have

Heather: I been crucified with Christ? It’s hard though because I didn’t know. I didn’t know what Jesus would do, but I knew that he was my Lord, so I had to say, I’ll do it.

Kelly: Yeah. Jamie Winship talks about this a lot to ask yourself every day. What are you so afraid of? There’s always fear. Yeah. There’s always some fear at the root of our struggles, and he said, but I have come so far in understanding God’s love, and I’ve seen him rescue me so many times that now I’m like.

Kelly: Whatever happens. Whether I’m safe here on earth or I’m safe with you in heaven. Yay. I’m with you. I mean, he’s just, I love that.

Heather: I’m almost there. I’m not. I’m [00:35:00] not quite there. Kelly. I’ll tell you the two situations. I’m not quite there. Travel, I still get a lot of anxiety and fear.

Heather: I was sitting on a plane and I was like, I’m tired of this fear. I was like, either I live or die. Who cares if this plane? So I’m almost there and the other is just having a lot of fear about my children. I really wanna get to the point where I’m like, I’m gonna be okay if. Their life does not turn out or whatever.

Heather: I’m gonna be okay.

Kelly: Yeah,

Heather: like the, I guess one definition of Christian maturity is how little you actually need to be. Okay.

Kelly: Oh, that’s so true. You know, I give you a little thing that I said, tell me a long time ago that I thought would make me, okay. So in this maturity journey we’re on, that’s what we’re describing.

Kelly: I very, I was pregnant with the twins. I had these two little kids, my oldest daughter had special needs, and I knew that there was a one in four chance that these [00:36:00] twins could be deaf. We didn’t have a family history of deafness until our oldest was born deaf. And so I remember telling my pastor’s wife well.

Kelly: I know I’m gonna be okay. You know we’re gonna be outnumbered. Two to one kids to parents, but I’ll be okay if they can hear and you can see what I was doing at that moment. I was putting my circumstances above God. I was saying my happiness, my okayness. Depends solely on if my circumstances are okay. And of course, we know that the twins were diagnosed profoundly deaf, and there were many special needs.

Kelly: We moved every two to three years in the military. And so along the way, God so graciously changed my view of him, and he became much bigger than my circumstances. And his voice has become louder than my fears, even though I still have to wrestle that out with him at times.

Heather: No, that’s good. That’s good.

Heather: Fear is so fascinating. I mean, I’ve been in a lot of therapy, so I [00:37:00] love all the different ways people go back and try to figure out where does this fear come from? Why am I carrying this fear? And, and I think. Seated with Christ helps me know that you bring that to Jesus and you’re with him at the table.

Heather: But there’s also other believers there because I’ve learned a lot in kind of trauma therapy that what you’re looking for are signs of connection and signs of safety. So when you’re, when you’re. Really struggling and panicking. You’re always thinking, am I safe here and am I connected here? You know, and that’s why seated is such a beautiful image, like we’re all in this together.

Heather: You’re not alone. You’re at the table with Jesus and other believers, and it’s a really safe place here.

Kelly: That’s a beautiful, powerful word to even close our time with. I’m wondering, Heather, if you can tell people how to get in touch with you and would you please mention that series you have for the youth?

Heather: Yes. In fact, the story I told you about Sarah in the middle school, it was actually our [00:38:00] good friend Judy Dunnigan, and she said, Heather. So many of these moms, when you give the seated with Christ talk, it heals that middle school wound. That seventh grade memory of not being at the popular table, it was Judy who said, you should write this for fifth and sixth grade girls to get them ready for middle school.

Heather: Right? Sita with Christ for them and my other daughter, Kate. Said, well, you should make it like a story, a fictionalized story, because little girls will love to read that. So I made, um, a middle grade series. It’s for eight to 10 year olds. Boys read it too. A lot of mothers of boys have really loved this.

Heather: The first book’s called This Seat Saved, and it’s about what happens when you realize you’re not at the popular table in middle. Middle school. Yeah. The second book is called The Disappearing Seat, and it’s about what happens when it seems like God’s blessing, everyone else’s life, but yours. So you feel like your seat with Jesus has disappeared.

Kelly: Oh, that’s so good. The third

Heather: book is called The Elite Seat, and that comes out, um, next year and it’s about what happens when you are popular.

Kelly: Oh [00:39:00] wow.

Heather: Not what you think. And the last book that will come out next season is called This Seat’s Yours. And it’s about, once you know your seat with Christ, your job is to go invite other people to the table and say, this seat’s yours.

Heather: Yeah, you can find [email protected]. The ministry my husband and I run is called Seated and Sent. So you can go to seated and scent.com and that’s where you can reach out and people book us all the time to do, uh, events. You know, I do women’s events, but also we come together and we do a Seated With Christ Talk and then evangelism training for when you live your scent life.

Kelly: Hmm. That’s so good. Well, Heather, I have been so encouraged during our conversation. I know. I, this has been great. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Heather: You’re welcome.

Kelly: If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great if you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving a review. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, [00:40:00] kelly hall.org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for listening to the Unshakable Hope podcast.