Podcast

Seeing Jesus Through Fresh Eyes . Kathy Howard

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Unshakable Hope podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kelly Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions such as, how do I trust God’s heart when his ways and delays are breaking mind? We’ll hear from people just like you and me who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected my prayers, that God would renew our hope and his word and his love through these conversations.

Kelly: Hey friends. If you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that every story shared and every Bible teaching we highlight is always for the purpose of shining a spotlight on God’s faithfulness.

Kelly: We often talk about the fact that although we have to wrestle through our emotions. Some of us more than others, he is always worthy of our trust. He draws near to our broken hearts and he so gently and tenderly helps us untangle [00:01:00] everything that is standing in the way of deeper trust in him. You may recall last summer from middle of June through August, we had a Bible study series and it was so much fun as we explored some hard faith questions with four different Bible teachers.

Kelly: I will link to that in the show notes, but today I am so excited to have another Bible teacher join me as we explore the book of John. The back of her Bible study reads. Fall in love with Jesus all over again, and we pray that’s exactly what God does even in his conversation. Kathy Howard is a fabulous inductive Bible teacher.

Kelly: She describes herself as a treasure hunter. She hunts for the creamiest chocolate, the richest coffee and cherish stories of faith. She’s a girl after my own heart. She digs deep into scripture. Kathy has a master’s in Christian education and has taught the Bible for more than 30 years. She’s the author of 15 books, including this devotional Bible study series that [00:02:00] I recommend I, it’s called Deep Rooted.

Kelly: She’s published five different books in this series. From the book of Acts all the way to Romans and Hebrews. Well, that’s really heady stuff. Kathy, I’m so impressed to Mark and John. Kathy and her husband live in North Texas. They’ve been, they have three married children, six grandchildren, and you can look her [email protected].

Kelly: Hey, Kathy, I am so thankful you’re joining me. I am so great grateful to be with

kathy: you today.

Kelly: Yeah, it’s gonna be fun. Well, we’re recording right now when some cold air has just dipped through Texas. Did you guys Yes. A lot of friends sending me snowy pictures. Did you guys get snow?

kathy: So we did not get snow this week.

kathy: We were very cold down to like 20 degrees. We got snow south of us in Houston, but it, it missed us here. However, two weeks ago we got about six inches of snow. I [00:03:00] happened to be on a mission trip in India at the time and I missed it. Oh, wow. Oh,

Kelly: that’s amazing. Did your family go with

kathy: you, your husband?

kathy: No, no. I, I went with a small team from I. My cousin’s church, my cousin who led the the trip. And so no, they were all here sending me pictures of snowmen and snowball fights and that sort of thing. That’s crazy.

Kelly: Well, before we dive into the book of John, I would love us to hear just a little bit of your faith journey.

kathy: Sure. So. My parents both loved Jesus and raised me in the church. I was there every time the door opened, and when I was eight years old, I made that profession of faith. I, I, I understood that I was a sinner and needed a savior, but looking back, I think at the time was a combination of I wanted.

kathy: To go to heaven. I wanted to do the right thing, what was expected of [00:04:00] me. And so for the next 18 years or so, I never felt really connected to God. I, I never felt any kind of assurance of my salvation, and it was just all a struggle. I just felt like I was going through the motions. Then when I was 26 years old, a young mom and started staying home for the first time.

kathy: I got into my first ever women’s Bible study, my, my first ever real in depth study of scripture.

Kelly: And

kathy: it was through the book of Romans. Oh, wow. And, god used that study and bringing a verse from Galatians, Galatians two 20, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh.

kathy: I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me, and the Holy Spirit showed me for the first time that salvation [00:05:00] is about. Just yielding my life to Jesus and letting him live his life through me. And I thought, I know this is not the first time I’ve heard this. I’ve heard this my entire life, but it was that moment that God used to really bring me to Jesus for, for the first time.

Kelly: . Beautiful. It’s so easy to go through the motions and not connect to his heart. It is. And that’s what I love so much about God’s word that is that we’re actually able to see the heart of God. Isn’t that amazing? Yeah. That he

kathy: even chooses. He wants us to know that, right? Yeah. He wants us to know him and so he has revealed himself to us.

Kelly: Yeah. So why don’t we start with, oh, I know. I wanted you to explain how the Book of John differs from the other gospels.

kathy: So we have four gospels and Matthew, mark, and Luke are called the synoptic gospels because they are very much alike in form and content. And John is very different in both, [00:06:00] very different in form and content.

kathy: It was written a lot later, several decades, probably later than the other gospels. I like to think John had a lot of time to. Meditate on the things that Jesus had taught, and I love that John is very first of all, it’s very rich in theological doctrine. The, the other gospels, the synoptics are, are much more.

kathy: If you will, action oriented, and John is filled with lengthy teachings of Jesus. There’s no parables. There’s these long discourses that you don’t have. In the other gospels, John was very selective about what signs he used. There’s only seven miracles in John. . We probably don’t even think about that and realize that, but most of them are not even found in the other gospels.

kathy: And the most significant, the raising of Lazarus from the dead is only found in John. Wow. Isn’t that interesting? [00:07:00] Yeah. Well, so, so the first one, which is turning water to wine, that’s only found in John as well. So he does have one miracle that’s in, in fact, it’s the only miracle that’s in all four gospels and that’s the feeding of the 5,000.

Kelly: Hmm.

kathy: So, John is, I know, isn’t that interesting? And John has those seven I am statements that Jesus gave that metaphorical pictures of. That help us understand who Jesus is, and so that’s unique to John as well. The other thing I love about John is that he’s very much, he very much emphasized the. The connection Jesus made with individuals.

kathy: Mm-hmm. We have, we have that conversation with Nicodemus in John chapter three, and we have Jesus’ conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well in, in chapter four, and those are unique to John, and we don’t see quite that same deep [00:08:00] interaction recorded in the other gospels.

Kelly: He doesn’t include any parables either, right?

kathy: No, he doesn’t. He doesn’t. It’s the, the teaching of Jesus he includes is much more theological Ben.

Kelly: Okay. That’s so interesting. I didn’t realize some of that. So what are the seven Im statements that Jesus, okay, I’m,

kathy: I’m gonna cheat, I’m gonna make sure I don’t miss any, so I’m going to, I’m gonna look, I wrote it down too.

kathy: So he said that he was the bread of life. And that’s in John chapter six. He said that he is the light of the world, and that is in John eight 12 and again in nine five. What I love particularly about this one is light is a theme in John from, from the beginning to the end. And in fact, light is a theme in scripture from Genesis chapter one to the last chapter.

kathy: Mm-hmm. Of Revelation. And one of these days, I’m gonna do an in-depth study on. [00:09:00] That.

Kelly: Yeah, that sounds fabulous,

kathy: doesn’t it? I, yeah, I love that. So we, if you want to, we can come back to that topic, but the third I am statement is Jesus said he was the door, and that’s in John 10, and there’s another one in John 10, just a few verses later, and that’s where Jesus said that he was the good shepherd.

kathy: Jesus said he is the resurrection in the life. In chapter 11. In chapter 14, he said, he is the way, the truth and the lie. And in 15 he said, I am the vine. I’m the true vine. Mm-hmm. So those are the formal seven I am statements. They’re basically all metaphors. There’s two bonus ones. Two,. Bonus I am statements that aren’t metaphors.

kathy: So in chapter eight he says, before Abraham was, I am.

Kelly: Yeah. So that one is not a metaphor there. He’s describing his actual, his name, his character.

kathy: In fact, when you look at [00:10:00] it grammatically in the Greek, compared to the Greek translation of the Old Testament, in Exodus chapter three, where, where God introduces himself to Moses through the burning bush, it is the same.

kathy: Grammar. Jesus was claiming divinity for himself. He was essentially saying, when he said, I am, he was declaring himself to be God. And some people try to explain that away. But I, I love the passage because in, in John a, it tells us immediately how the Jewish leaders responded. They responded by picking up stones to throw at him.

Kelly: Yeah,

kathy: because the penalty for blasphemy was stoning the pen blasphemy, essentially claiming for yourself that which only belongs to God. And so they understood exactly what he was saying. He claimed to be God, and they picked up stones to stoning.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] I love that so much that you brought that out in your Bible study because this the eternal nature of Jesus, he is God.

Kelly: The Bible tells us that Jesus is the exact represent representation mm-hmm. Of God. Character. So whatever we see Jesus doing, we know that is who God is. I even had one Bible teacher say once, if there’s something in the Old Testament you’re struggling with, just go to the New Testament because then you, you see a bigger picture of God’s heart.

Kelly: Maybe a more clear personal picture of God’s heart through Jesus. Same God, right? Same God who was merciful and compassionate and full of goodness. Towards his people. Right. And so, I thought that was interesting, but I wanna talk a little bit more about before Abraham was I am, since we’re there. Okay.

Kelly: Okay. Let’s do it. So, in some of the hardest times of my life, Kathy, the thing that comforted me so much is knowing that [00:12:00] God is absolutely. Sovereign and in control over every circumstance. He is eternal, right? So there was never a time when he did not know what was going on, right? There’s never a part of my life that is a surprise to him.

Kelly: And so when these surprises came, when my heart was breaking, when I was afraid of what the future held, I could remember that this God is in charge of it all and it is very comforting.

kathy: Yes. You know, I, I had, I mean there have been many moments in my life where I’ve had similar feelings, but I remember specifically, ’cause this was not that long ago in 2020 when Covid hit and we were all.

kathy: You know, forced essentially to stay behind doors. And we’re all watching the news. We’re all many of us are a little bit panicky, and this is one of the times that God spoke to me so clearly not audibly, but I knew without a doubt it was him. And essentially he said, Kathy. Do [00:13:00] you think this was a surprise to me?

kathy: Like I knew this was coming and I, I, I know what’s going on. I know what’s gonna happen tomorrow, and you may not, and you may not even like what’s coming, but I have got this and I am in control and this is all working into my plan.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. That just brings tears to my eyes. So I’ve gotta collect myself for a moment, because even recently, something hard has come into our life, and it again, is so freshly comforting to know that God is sovereign.

Kelly: And I wanna read just one of my favorite passages to go to when I am rehearsing the truth of God’s sovereignty. Mm-hmm. And in Psalm 29. 10 and 11, and it says The Lord sits enthroned over the flood. The Lord is enthroned as king forever. And I always think that means you’re king of my life yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Kelly: And then in verse 11, he gets even more personal and he says, the Lord [00:14:00] gives strength to his people. The Lord blesses his people with peace. And so we have this beautiful picture of God being immensely powerful, completely in control, and then getting. So personal with his children and saying, I’m taking care of you.

kathy: One of my favorite passages in is in Isaiah and where Isaiah, the Lord says, when you walk through the waters, I will be with you. You will not drown. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned because he is with us. So there’s so much in there, but essentially, first of all, we’re gonna go through waters and we’re gonna go through fires and, and God knows it, but he.

kathy: We don’t have to be overcome by those things. He is because he is with us as we go through ’em.

Kelly: Amen. And you know, in John 1633, he says the same thing. Right. He says, I’ve said these things to you so that in me you may have peace.

Kelly: And then he says, in the world you’ll have tribulation, but take heart, I’ve overcome the world. Right. So [00:15:00] it’s an invitation to peace.

kathy: It is. And I, I’ve looked up that Greek word for peace before and studied that just a little bit, but on something I did from the book of Philippians, you know, where, where Paul says, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything with prayer and petition, present your request to God and the peace of God, you will have the peace of God.

kathy: , But essentially Paul is saying just what Jesus said. The world looks at that idea of peace and thinks that it is the absence of strife, strife, the the absence of war and trouble. But what it really is, what Jesus says it is, and what Paul says it is, is the presence of peace in the middle of those things.

kathy: The presence of God’s calming, nurturing spirit in the presence of trouble, war and strife.

Kelly: Hmm. Yes. That’s so good. Well, let’s shift gears. Let’s go back to our seven I am speaker. [00:16:00] Oh yeah. Okay.

kathy: We didn’t, we didn’t, we did get through them, didn’t we? But we didn’t talk about them. Yeah,

Kelly: we did state all of them.

Kelly: Okay. So I want you to choose one, one that has been meaningful to you in your walk of faith and talk to us about that and how it has strengthened your faith in, in your life.

kathy: Well, can we talk about I am the light of the world, just a little bit more. Yes. Well, yes.

Kelly: One of my favorites, you

kathy: know, because it is so rich and I, I love the way that John begins his gospel because,, it’s different from the other gospels.

kathy: You know, two of them begin with the birth of Jesus. Mark begins with, the ministry of John the Baptist. But John begins before the beginning. You know, John, John begins in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. So John starts back before. Creation, which I think is so [00:17:00] appropriate for everything.

kathy: He teaches the reader about Jesus and who he is. And then he introduces us to the fact that the word is life and the word is light, and that the darkness will not overcome that light. All of scripture shows this this physical. Difference between light and darkness. That that darkness represents sin and evil and spiritual confusion and lack of spiritual understanding.

kathy: And light is not just God himself, but God’s God’s presence, God’s illumination of, of spiritual truth. His. Overcoming evil. And so light is so, I mean that one five letter word is so deep and meaningful about who Jesus is, that God himself [00:18:00] came to push away the darkness, the light of the world came into a world that was dominated by darkness and.

kathy: You know what it’s like when this piercing light hits a dark place? And just imagine that’s, that’s what happened when Jesus came and almost like the darkness started running away, right? The darkness fled from the light because they knew they could not stop it. And it’s just, it’s an amazing picture. And when Jesus made this declaration, when I was studying to write deep rooted growing through the gospel of John, I learned that.

kathy: At the time that he made that statement, it was during the Feast of Tabernacles and during the Feast of Tabernacles, they set up four giant candelabras in the court of women outside the tabernacle, and those were lit, and most likely he was standing there with those massive lit [00:19:00] con candelabras, which.

kathy: The Jewish leaders didn’t even understand what they represented. They just, every year they lit ’em. They lit ’em, right? Mm-hmm. And yet they represented the light of the world and, and Jesus was claiming this, this is all about me. This is all about me.

Kelly: Oh, I love that so much. You know, and even just praying about that, even worshiping the Lord Jesus who are the light of the world reminds us that nothing is hidden from his sight.

kathy: That’s right. And

Kelly: it reminds us that in the confusion of our lives when we don’t even know what we need to pray or what we’re feeling or what’s going on, or how we’re we should respond to something that his light shines in. To the confusion and darkness of our hearts and brings clarity. Mm-hmm. And hope and direction.

Kelly: Yes.

kathy: Praise God for that.

kathy: Yeah. And we just need to follow his direction. Right? We need to follow his footsteps.

Kelly: Yeah. You know, the other thing that I think is [00:20:00] so beautiful about that declaration, often Jesus in, well, I think in the Book of John a couple of different times, after Jesus makes a declaration of who he is, there is a sign that correlates with that declaration.

Kelly: Oh, and, and so in John eight. He declares I am the light of the world in that beautiful, powerful setting. And then in the very next chapter, John includes the healing of the blind man.

kathy: Yes.

Kelly: And he attacks a wrong theology that they had lived with. That was, that was prevalent in the culture of that day.

Kelly: What would you talk about that?

kathy: Right. So when they encountered this blind man, the disciples asked Jesus. So, you know, teacher rabbi who, who sinned in this man’s life to cause him to be blind? Was it him or was it his parents? So the, the understanding was that hardship was a direct, circumstance caused by our sin.

kathy: So Jesus cleared that up and [00:21:00] said it wa it was neither, it was neither his parents nor him who sinned. But this in fact, he said, I, I have come to this moment in time with this man and his situation in order to reveal God, to bring God glory. Mm-hmm. So the man’s physical hardship. Was an opportunity for God to reveal himself and to do his work.

kathy: And so then of course, Jesus healed the man. And I love when the, when the Jewish leaders were interviewing the man the second time, I believe, and they kept saying, who, who is it? Who is this man that healed you? And he said, look, you’re asking me questions that I don’t have the answer to. I can tell you my personal testimony.

kathy: Of course, I’m paraphrasing. I can give you my personal testimony, and that is I was blind and then I met this guy, and now I can see. That’s what I can tell you. I can tell you my personal testimony, which is all Jesus asked us to [00:22:00] share. Right?

Kelly: Right.

kathy: I learned a, a little tidbit. Well, we all, we all know the song Amazing Grace.

kathy: And as I was studying John nine, it reminded me of that because one of the lines of amazing grace is I once was blind, but now I see was lost. But I was lost. But now I’m found. So John Newton, who had been a former slave trader until. God brought him, the father brought him to Jesus, and now he has new spiritual sight and completely and totally changed his life.

kathy: And shared that amazing. Wrote that amazing hymn for umpteen generations. To glorify God with.

Kelly: So powerful. I also love how when Jesus says that about that blind man, like it wasn’t his parents sin, it wasn’t his sin. It was so that the works of God could be displayed in them. That one little story brought me so much personal comfort when we discovered that our oldest daughter was profoundly deaf and got, because I’m [00:23:00] thinking this is my fault.

Kelly: You know, I, I know I ran, I ran too much and I was. Pregnant with her. I took antibiotics once. Like I did this and Jesus was so tender with me, like he immediately brought to mind that story. No, it is so that the works of God could be displayed in her and in your family. And I knew this was gonna have, this is not punishment.

Kelly: That’s not how God works. Right. Being in this world, we will have trouble. Yeah, that’s what we have. It’s not punishment that is not how he works. He loves us so much and he meets us in these times of hardships and walks us through them as he reveals his character and his love

Kelly: amen.

kathy: You had asked about possibly talking about two of the I Am statements. We, yeah, we talked about the light of the world. That is probably my favorite. But I recently just did a devotion at a women’s fellowship on John 15 and the True Vine. Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Which is fascinating because.

kathy: Jesus teaches so much about what it really means to be in a relationship with him, to to be saved. And I thought so much back about Galatians two 20, every time I read John 15 about Jesus being the vine and us being the branches and that his life flows. through us that we can’t do anything without him.

kathy: It’s such a picture of what salvation really is, is that it is no longer our life. It is Christ’s life flowing through us, and we have no life apart from him.

Kelly: Mm, yes. That word abide, did you talk about that in your devotion? I did. Yeah, I

kathy: did. And you know, I’ve, I’ve looked up the original Greek so many times it, but it means remain tarry stay.

kathy: In other words, we have to just completely and always [00:25:00] 24 7, 356 days a year remain connected to Jesus. Because if we’re not. There’s no spiritual life.

Kelly: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And another word we could use is ponder. As we remain with him, that’s one of the ways we can remain with him, is to get curious with the word, to get curious about what’s going on in our life.

Kelly: To ask the Lord, what do you want me to know about this situation? What do you want me to know about what I’m reading in the Bible? And so just don’t accept things at face value. But get curious and meditate and dive in and sit with the Lord in places, right?

Kelly: That is one of the ways that we can learn to abide with him as we go about our daily life.

kathy: And I, so my, I think my favorite Psalm is Psalm one, and which is where the name deep rooted for those that devotional series comes from, is that picture of the, of the tree that is planted by streams water. The the man or the woman who meditates.[00:26:00]

kathy: On the Lord’s word, on the law of the Lord will be like a tree planted by streams of water. Talks about the fact that its leaf will never wither and it will produce fruit in season. Essentially, our spiritual vitality and usefulness to God comes from it’s flows out of us. Grounding our life in the word of God, because that’s how we, how we know him and his ways.

kathy: That’s how we know his, his purposes, and his character. And without being in, in God’s word, we won’t be spiritually healthy and useful to God.

kathy: Yes.

Kelly: I love that picture as well. That is so. Cool to think about flourishing, even in times of hardship to think about being fruitful even when you may be in a wilderness season.

Kelly: But if we’re, if we’re sinking our roots deep into the living water of the word, then that’s right. Jesus, we [00:27:00] will continue to flourish and bear fruit. That’s right. And you’ve seen people like this that even when they’re walking through a hard season, , they seem to be. Covered with peace.

Kelly: There seems to be something radiant about that

kathy: because they’re getting their nourishment from somewhere other than their surrounding circumstances.

Kelly: Yes.

kathy: There’s a contrasting picture. I think it’s in Jeremiah maybe, or it’s in Isaiah or Jeremiah about, about the tree in the, the wilderness that.

kathy: Is not rooted into that source of water and drought comes and it dries up and dies. But the one that is tapped into that water source can thrive even even with drought circumstances. Yeah.

Kelly: Psalm 112: 7 says. The one who trusts in the Lord does not fear bad news.

Kelly: I think I’m reversing it a little bit, [00:28:00] but we don’t have to live with a fear of the future. When we are trusting in God, when we are continually rehearsing his goodness and his faithfulness and his sovereignty, then we do not have to live in fear.

Kelly: Right.

kathy: You know, God has showed me something in recent years that I think is appropriate here because so often we, when we’re, we’re in difficult circumstances, we, we pray, but we pray, asking God for a very specific outcome to those circumstances. Yes. And so we, we end up having faith in. An outcome that we want God to bring about rather than having faith in God and trusting that whatever outcome he brings about is going to be for our good in his glory.

kathy: So I keep trying to remind myself and others our faith’s gotta be in God, not in a particular outcome that we want because [00:29:00] then. We are, we would never be disappointed, right? If we put our faith in an outcome that doesn’t come about, then we are, are disappointed and our, our trust in God may lessen. But if, but if our faith is always in God, no matter how he chooses to work out the circumstances, our our faith will always be built.

kathy: Yes,

Kelly: and I think one of the names, one of the I am statements that relates to this in my life is I am the good Shepherd. When Jesus said that, he was again equating himself with God, right. Yes.

kathy: You look at Psalm 23 and in fact, maybe Jesus was even thinking of the 23rd Psalm. Yeah. When he, when he said, I am the Good Shepherd.

kathy: Because sometimes God allows us, even leaves us through dark and difficult places, but we do not have. Fear because he is right there beside us. Yes.

Kelly: And then I think it’s in verse [00:30:00] six where he says His goodness and love pursue us all the days of our life. And that that one thought his goodness.

Kelly: That’s what changed my husband’s and my perspective as we continue to go through a long, unresolved story in our family’s life. A lot of hardship is just looking for God’s goodness, right? And Psalm. And so that’s when I think of Jesus as being the good shepherd. Mm-hmm. I think you are pursuing me with goodness.

Kelly: You are right here, and I pray you would just open our eyes to see the goodness that you’re pouring out on our lives today. So in

kathy: other words, will we trust in God’s character? That he will do us good and not harm. That is a really good question. You know, I just, I just spent a week in India and I, I did some reading about Hinduism because of course it is so prevalent there.

kathy: The like 80% of the people in India are, are Hindu. And one thing I learned was they they learn not to question. Gods because [00:31:00] if they question the gods, then something bad is going to happen to them. So they constantly live in fear that they’re gonna say or do something that’s going to cause the gods to lash out at them.

kathy: And I thought, how in contrast to our God, who is, is good and, and faithful, and always, always acts in love towards us.

Kelly: Yeah. Oh, that is a sad way to live. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. I, I want to just before we close, I wanna talk about one more story that I love so much in the book of John and I. He is the only one I think that includes this story as well.

Kelly: And it’s when they are coming to arrest Jesus. And he asked them, who do you want? Who are you looking for? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. And he says, I am he right.

kathy: So yeah, that’s fascinating because that’s actually the second I am statement. That’s not a metaphor, right? And so [00:32:00] in the Greek,

kathy: the word he is not there. It is. It is added to our English translations for understanding. So what Jesus literally says is just. I am. That was what Jesus said, and, and the text tells us that, you know, everybody fell back and, and fell on the ground. And again, it’s so clear that he is making this statement that.

kathy: He is, I am God, I, I am he. And or I am literally. And that that Greek means the self existent one, the one who is independent of needing anything outside himself. So God and Jesus is, God doesn’t need any of us, which makes the his desire for us even more out. Outstanding. Doesn’t it just mm-hmm.

kathy: Amazing. But it also showed in that moment that [00:33:00] Jesus willingly gave his life. He did not have to be arrested. That huge group of, of soldiers, with clubs and swords and all of that. They were no match for Jesus. , I think it’s in Matthew where he said, I could call thousands of angels to come down right now and rescue me.

kathy: I’m not gonna do it because this is the father’s will. But he let them know I. That he was going of his own free will. Yeah,

Kelly: I really love to just sit in that moment and imagine what it looked like. The English translation says that they drew back. And fell down. And I, I don’t know, you may know this, maybe there’s a different translation that explains it more clearly, but what I imagine in my mind is they stepped back and I wonder if they could have actually bowed forward, bowed before the King of Kings because his glory just been unleashed upon them.

kathy: Right. I would like to see that to you. I don’t, I don’t know the answer to that. There’s [00:34:00] various scholar opinion on exactly what’s going on there. And John doesn’t give us all I. The specific details, but you would like to know , if just the. Overwhelming holiness of his presence, just flattened them involuntarily.

kathy: Or if they were just forced to recognize it and fell on their faces. But John doesn’t say,

Kelly: yeah, but I’d love to think about that because what it said to me is what you mentioned. That he willingly laid down his life. In that moment, the veil between heaven and earth was pulled back just a little. Mm-hmm.

Kelly: Some of his glory was unleashed in that place, and we see that he, he could have ended it, but he willingly laid down his life. And again, that speaks to me so much about his sovereignty, that he’s in control of every situation and that I don’t have to fear because, I feel like he’s saying to us.

Kelly: I am sovereign over your story. This is not the end of it. [00:35:00] It may look dark right now, but , just a minute. Just wait and see how my goodness and glory is gonna be unleashed in this place. And he always ties his goodness. We see him tying his goodness to his glory in the book of Moses, when Moses says, show me your glory, and Uhhuh, God responds, I will allow.

Kelly: Oh my goodness, to come for you. And so it’s just one of those moments where we can be so assured of his goodness towards us. Right,

kathy: right. Yeah. I love that story too, because God fulfilled Moses’ request, but again, he said, you really don’t know what you’re asking because if I show you everything of who I am.

kathy: You would not survive it. So I’m going to show you, I’m gonna give you a glimpse. I’m gonna give you a glimpse.

Kelly: He’s so good to us. He strengthens us in our weariness as we go into the Bible, he reveals to us who he is and it is so powerful. We see that he is bigger and more powerful than anything we face on this earth, and that he is definitely got us.

Kelly: [00:36:00] He is with us and for us, and we can trust him.

kathy: Yes.

Kelly: Well, is there anything else you want to share, Kathy, before we close our time?

kathy: If your readers have never read through the Gospel of John, or it’s been a little while to read through it with fresh eyes to really see what John wanted us to learn about Jesus.

kathy: He, he wraps up his gospel by telling us why he wrote that he included those specific things that he included so that we would believe that Jesus. Is the Messiah, and that in believing who Jesus is, we would have life in his name.

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

kathy: John wanted us to understand who Jesus is and place our faith and trust in him.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. That’s what God says he desires. That none should perish, but all that’s right should come to know him. That’s right. Well, I want our listeners to know that they can check you [email protected]. Yes. She’s written so many books, but I highly [00:37:00] recommend her deep rooted series where you can grow closer to Jesus, closer to God’s heart through these different Bible studies. Thank you so much for joining me, Kathy.

kathy: Thank you, Kelly. I enjoyed it.

If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great if you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving a review. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, kelly hall.org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for listening to the Unshakeable Hope podcast.