Podcast

Finding God’s Presence in the Pain of Injustice. Luann Mire and Patti Richter

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Unshakable whole podcast, where real life intersects redeeming love. I’m Kelly Hall, and this is where we wrestle through faith questions such as, how do I trust God’s heart when his ways and delays are breaking mind? We’ll hear from people just like you and me who have experienced God’s faithfulness when life didn’t unfold as they expected my prayers, that God would renew our hope in his word and his love through these conversations.

Kelly: Hey friends. I’m so glad you’re here. You’re not gonna believe this amazing story that we’re gonna talk about today, but I have a question for you first. What is the hardest thing for you to trust God for? There are a couple ways I could answer that. For me though, the issue that stirs up the most anxiety is any case of injustice.

Several years ago, God put a particular book in front of me and [00:01:00] I didn’t know why, but he kept doing it until finally I purchased it and I read it and I was blown away by this story. The book is called Signs of His Presence, experiencing God’s Comfort in Times of Suffering. It won the Christian Book of the Year Award and best Christian memoir, Luann Mire’s husband was indicted on federal charges for something he did not do and thrown in prison and even spent time in solitary confinement for his protection.

And yet he was innocent of all wrongdoing. Today I have with me Luann Meir, the wife of Pat, who was unjustly accused, and her dear friend and collaborative writer, Patty Richter. And they’re gonna talk to us about the story and how God brought them together. But more than anything, the overarching theme is summed up on the back cover of the book.

We are gonna discover that when justice is elusive, God is not. When trouble closes [00:02:00] in, God is even closer. And I wanna tell you guys that when my family walked through a season of great injustice, I mean, we even had to hire a lawyer, I couldn’t believe it. We were walking through a season where it was just hard to comprehend that common sense was not prevailing.

And it was so difficult to wrap my mind around. The truth that these people in places of power weren’t responding the way they should be. And I knew the Bible had a lot to say about suffering. I talk about this all the time. But I was sincerely amazed to discover how much the Bible has to say about injustice.

I kept referring back to this book over and over when our family was walking through this because it gave me so much hope. I thought, okay, those people made it through an injustice and theirs was much harder than mine. I know we’re gonna survive because God is sovereign and God is good, and he is gonna meet us in these hard places and [00:03:00] walk us through. That’s exactly what we see in Lou Ann’s story.

So let me just introduce you to my guests so we can get moving.

Luann Meir, has a background in teaching and she also has been very involved in teaching women’s Bible studies. She finds so much joy in serving others and by offering her home as a hub for family and friends.

Kelly: She and her husband Pat live in San Antonio, Texas, which means when I go visit my grandchild, soon I get to meet her in person. And you guys, I gotta tell you this too, Luann and I just discovered that we were at Steven F. Austin State University in Nacodoches, Texas at the same time, in the same year, in the same dorm, living only one floor apart.

I know God has ordained this time and we’re excited. And also Patty Richter, her friend and collaborative writer is joining us. She’s a freelance journalist, a faith columnist with more than 400 published [00:04:00] articles. She served her local church by teaching the Bible to people of all ages, and she lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with her husband.

Kelly: Okay guys, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having us, Kelly. So, why don’t y’all, first of all, tell us how you two met? Because somehow God led you both to write this book together and you had no idea that was gonna unfold.

Patty: Patty, Why don’t you start us out?

I moved to San Antonio and lived there for 10 years, but the very day that we moved into our house, Luanne was the first and the only neighbor to come and greet us on that day. And she showed up at our door with the plate of cookies with her youngest son standing next to her, who just happened to be the age of our youngest son.

Patty: So our youngest son instantly had a friend within days they were hanging out together and, the Mire family was just so friendly and hospitable, and even though our kids were involved in different schools and [00:05:00] churches we still shared the same faith and we had an interest in Bible studies. So over the years, Luann and I participated in a lot of Bible study, neighborhood bible studies, mostly together.

And we just had a strong friendship all those years. Even though I moved away after 10 years, which was a few years, before all this began to happen, and then we reconnected as far as writing the story, I was kind of a safe person because I was out of town and I was a bible friend, prayer friend.

And I just began to see that, what Luann was going through, any of us could go through . And after a while began to see that there was a real story there and that this story wa was probably not gonna be about the injustice itself, but about what I was seeing.

But what Luann was seeing was God’s presence throughout her story.

Kelly: Mm, absolutely. I think from what I read in [00:06:00] the book, you were kind of pushy about, I’m not gonna let you get away with not writing

Luann: Yeah. She was a little bit, and she was part of the reason that the book actually started because I was praying about it.

I knew there was a story here. There was too many things going on. And I was asking God, but also kind of telling him, no, don’t wanna do this is too painful. And then I found myself in the book of Habakkuk, not my normal book to go to. And there. You know, the prophet is asking God, why there’s so many wicked people and why is justice denied?

And so God says, well, you need to write about that Habakkuk, and you need to make a permanent testimony. And I thought, okay, well that’s interesting. God. And then three different friends within 24 hours told me, and Patty was one, Luanne, you have to write a book. Mm. And so I had been praying, not sure that was the answer I wanted.

I I and I knew that it wouldn’t be a how to book. [00:07:00] Yeah. It would just be a yes to book, because I didn’t know how to get through the day. It was very, very painful. Very. So I thought, well, I’m gonna just say yes to trusting God yes to surrendering what I wanna do. And, hopefully that it would glorify him.

And incidentally, we wrote it together, but I wrote for my prayer journals, and so I was praying, and so I had chronicled everything. and then God and his sovereignty supplied the scripture. I never thought, I need to find a scripture to go with this incident, or I need to go looking for something.

Every time, God. It was there. It was either my reading and so that made it so much easier. So lots of scripture in our book.

Kelly: Yeah. No kidding. I know one reviewer wrote it was like doing a bible study because it was, it was like reviewing everything the Bible had to say about God’s sovereignty and his justice and his goodness.

I loved it so [00:08:00] much.

So Luann, I know everything was about to fall apart in your family. Could you just talk to us about what family life was like for y’all before the nightmare began?

Luann: Sure. Well, pat and I, as you mentioned, have two sons, Alan and Andrew, and we were just one of those families. We were very involved with all of their activities.

Whereas Pat would coach their sports. I was, I guess, team mom, we did all the sporting activities. We were very involved in our church where they were teaching Sunday school or having, we had the boys Bible studies at our home go on mission trips. We were just, that was our life centered around that.

We had extended family in Pasadena and Deer Park, and so we were close enough that we could. See my parents and Pat’s parents, and it was a close family also with all of us being in Texas, so we were a happy family,

we enjoyed each other. Yeah. Never ever expected something like this, so

Kelly: yeah. It was just so out of the blue. [00:09:00] Absolutely. Your husband wasn’t even working for this company anymore. It was so crazy. He was innocent of all wrongdoing and the injustice. Even as you unfold the story in your book, the injustice is so obvious, and yet against all reason, he was swept up in this indictment and found guilty.

So can you just explain to us how that unfolded?

Luann: Well, it is incredulous and it’s hard to even comprehend that that happens in America ’cause we’re told Yeah, you know, the truth will set you free. We were not worried, pat had not worked for them for over four years, almost five when this happened.

But we were told the prosecutors can just cast a wide net and they can indict anyone, the company and everyone if they wanted to, they insisted to indict Pat. Because if they told us later his good character, how ironic that that would help the prosecution because of Pat’s good character. They also threatened pat that if he didn’t [00:10:00] agree to their plan, how they wanted everything to go, that they would not indict the employer.

So you don’t have a choice with this. And of course since we wanted the employer indicted. Pat agreed to the plan. He was told that he would be given the opportunity to tell his story to the judge and that everything would be fine. Well, the prosecutor recants and misleads our attorneys as well as the judge, and Pat was never allowed to share the truth.

And we were told that the means justify the end and that we were just collateral damage. Hmm. And I believe in the eyes of Jesus. Pat, I are more than collateral damage.

Kelly: Amen.

Patty: Kelly, I can add to that if I can. Of course. My husband had been an officer of several different companies and even before what happened to Pat, he had seen officers of companies, other companies, indicted because of [00:11:00] something else that another officer in the company had done.

There’s, you’re held liable for the wrongdoing of, of someone else in the company. And if your name is on the dotted line as an officer, you can all be pulled in. And, and he saw some very unfair things. So he knew when this happened to Pat. He had seen it before.

Kelly: Yeah. It’s so hard to comprehend and I’m so sorry your family went through all this and I think one of the hardest things is what the judge said to Pat when he was sentencing him, he was criticizing him for stealing money for all of this wrongdoing and on and on and on and on. And not a word of it was true. I know it was so hard for you and your family and I’m so sorry.

Luann: Oh, it was, it was, it was awful. There’s no, there are no words. It was something we never expected.

Couldn’t understand. It’s still painful today.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I can see why. Well, because of what you walked through, of course, [00:12:00] forgiveness was certainly a part of your story. You include a quote by Mary DeMuth in your book. And she’s just talking about what forgiveness actually is, and she says it’s a holy letting go, allowing God’s justice to pervade the situation.

And it releases you from bitterness and from feeling like you had to punch. I, I love that last part too. I’m sure Luann you wanted to punch a few people along the way, but the Lord met you in this journey of forgiveness. We cannot forgive without God’s help. It, it’s impossible. And I love how he met you and I can’t even believe some of the situations you were put in, even running into the judge and at a separate time, the prosecutor in public places after all of this had happened.

Luann: Well, that’s true. I couldn’t believe it either. And the first time it happened, I was with a friend at a sandwich shop and, I [00:13:00] see the prosecutor at the drink station and I said, oh, we gotta sit down very quickly. And I sat down and I just thought, I am gonna fall apart right here, or I’m gonna, I’d like to go punch.

I, I don’t think that would work. And so I managed to eat, didn’t enjoy the meal. I told her what was going on, who was seated very close to us. And I got home that day and thought, okay, I’m gonna, I’m just gonna be okay. The next morning in my prayer time, I’m opening my devotion and I see it’s Psalm 23 and I’m like, well, that’s not gonna offer me anything good.

Or what would I say? Not necessarily good, but something that had to do with what I was dealing with, seen as prosecutor. Right. And then verse five of Psalm 23 is, thou prepare us a table before me in the presence of my enemy. Mm-hmm. It, I thought, oh, this doesn’t seem like a coincidence at all. Well, fast forward about a year and I’m with my daughter-in-law.

We’re getting a [00:14:00] pedicure trying to live life Pat’s away, and I see the prosecutor again and I, my feet are in the little basin. We’re having our pedicure and I see him and thankfully he leaves within 15 minutes and I thought, oh my goodness.

Here we are. Well, next morning, just my routine is what I do. I’m doing my prayer time. It’s a different book. I’m not in the same devotion. There it is again. Psalm 23, 5 thou prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemy. Well, I think it could happen once coincidental, but not twice.

The next time there’s a, I have the encounter with the judge and I’m at a Mexican restaurant.

So these are three different places in San Antonio. , it’s unbelievable. There I see him and I thought, oh no, I cannot believe this is happening. I’ve never seen this man, you know, before or anywhere. And so I called Patty that evening and I said, you’re not gonna believe what happened.

I ran into the judge and [00:15:00] Patty said, you’re not gonna believe what you’re gonna read in the morning. By this time she and I were doing the same book. We’re doing a, a different devotion, and she said, I read ahead and when you open tomorrow, it’s Psalm 23, 5. Thou prepares the table before me in the presence of my enemy.

So I knew this could not happen three times. Coincidentally, you know, David runs into King Saul. Not once, but twice. And both times he had to trust God to avenge. And I think, I don’t know if God was testing me to see what I would do or to see, I would handle it. For me it was affirmation. Look, Luann.

I am giving you Psalm 23, 5. I am providing for you you are not alone . None of these occurrences happened without me. Right with you. You know, right in the, the sandwich shop, the pedicure place and the Mexican restaurant.

Kelly: Oh, I love that just providing for you in the middle [00:16:00] of, in front of your enemies.

What were you gonna say, Patty?

Patty: I was just gonna say I could add to the incredulity of those three situations, not just because I heard about them fresh, but because I knew for one thing that. Luann was not wanting to go out in public at all during this time. She was just wanting to hole up and, and hide it.

It was just awful. And when she went to the sandwich shop, it was a, a friend wanting to get her out of the house, let’s go. And, you know, and San Antonio is a huge city to run into. This person right in front of her. Yeah. The pedicure only happened. Luann was not hanging out in salons at this time.

But her daughter-in-law was in town for a wedding and wanted a pedicure to be in the wedding. So she went with her daughter-in-law and who do they run into in a salon of all places. And the third time she had no intention of going to dinner. A friend had gotten her to get out and luanne like, here we are. Let’s just go to dinner while we’re out. And so they [00:17:00] no plan. And who does she sit next to? And I already knew what happened with Psalm 23 after the first run in. Yeah, it was just too incredible.

Kelly: Too incredible. And I know Luann, that this whole situation was public. Like it was in the news, it was in the newspaper. People knew about it. Your neighbors knew, your church body knew people knew your name, your husband’s name.

And it was so difficult. And I know you told me, I just wanted to buy a billboard and say, Hey Pat, my

Luann: husband is innocent.

I wanted that more than anything. I just wanted to shout from the rooftop and I couldn’t, you know, I, I had to just. Stay in this, this mode. So

Kelly: yes, that’s so difficult. I was talking to somebody else, going through an injustice and it’s the same thing I thought was if I could just talk to each person individually, one-on-one and you know, present the truth, then [00:18:00] all of this would come apart and there would be nothing left because everybody would know the truth.

But it’s not the

Luann: case. No, it’s not at all. And you can’t imagine till you go through it, you don’t understand the ins and outs of our judicial system. You don’t understand that there, they’re gonna use, as I mentioned, collateral damage. We were just a pawn over here to be manipulated. Then we’re it, it’ll all fall into there so they could convict the employer.

Kelly: Yeah. Right. Well, I love how the Lord met you, just to say, I’ve got you. I’m providing for you. And I appreciate your explanation from the story of David and how God just showed I’m, I’m in charge, vengeance is mine and I’m in charge of the timing and I see the injustice, but I’m taking care of you in this place.

That was really powerful. Well, I wanna mention that your book is like a flashlight that directs us to the Lord’s heart. I mean, in your book all the way through, we see [00:19:00] God’s heart, we see his heart of kindness and goodness and compassion, and it is a source of hope for anyone walking through any type of suffering, not just injustice.

So I’m wondering if you could describe some of the ways God met you and encouraged you in the word, when the battle was intense. What scripture really spoke to you when you were just in the throes of battle?

Luann: Well. Without a doubt. Psalm 34 18 , that scripture, that the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

I was brokenhearted. I was crushed in spirit. I could not understand. I couldn’t make sense of the faith that I had grown up in or the God that I believed in would who knew the truth would allow this. And I just kept reminding him of his promise that he’s gonna be close to me and he’s gonna save me because I’m crushed in spirit.

Hmm. He did, he did it in tangible ways. I talk [00:20:00] about this in our book that’s why we titled it, signs of His Presence. It I mentioned these cardinals that I didn’t know what the name of that bird was, but I called them red birds and it was unbelievable how they would appear. And it was a. I felt like it was a tangible sign of, God, I’m with you, Luann.

I’m with you. You don’t have to be afraid. And like I said, there were many instances, but it was I couldn’t have made those up and how they would appear when I would be absolutely crest, fall, and couldn’t, couldn’t even imagine how I would get through the day. One time I was reading a Christian fiction book in the house and I’m on my bed and I’m starting to cry.

’cause I’m thinking, of course this has a good ending. It’s Christian fiction, it’s gonna have a happy ending. And I’m crying and I’m crying. My life is not in a, in a good place. And I hear tap, tap, tap on my bedroom door and it’s a French door. And I looked there and on the doorknob there was [00:21:00] a cardinal.

This was the first, second, or third or fourth cardinal. By now, I’m. They’re talking to me. He looked over there, he carried his head around like, it’s okay, Luann. I’m right here looking at you through one of those small squares on the French door. And the day wasn’t so great, but I wasn’t so afraid. I thought you were with me.

You are saving me. Who, you know, at that time crushed in spirit. Another way was dreams and, and God would speak to me.

Kelly: I thought it was so amazing how God cared for you. , God met you and your husband and your family while you were walking through this, through the body of Christ and through the word and through dreams even and, and showing his love for you, even through the Cardinals, it was so amazing. So why don’t you tell about a couple of the dreams, the way God spoke to you through those.

Luann: Okay, sure. One dream in particular was it didn’t have any people, no dilemma, [00:22:00] no circumstances. I just saw two clear words, one on top of the other.

Trust me, that’s all I saw. But it was all caps, you know, it was very vivid. And so the morning after the dream I am in my prayer time, but I’m not in a normal reading. I’m in the book of Nahum, that’s what it was. And I looked in that book and in the scripture in the, in Nahum chapter one, verse seven, you’re not gonna believe it, the Lord is good.

A refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who. Trust him. Mm. So powerful. And so for two weeks in my journal, I wrote those words. I didn’t wanna forget it. I, I put, trust me in capital letters, just how I saw it in my dream. And then I thought, if I’m writing these and I’m looking at it, that maybe I’d start believing it in times of panic.

I, I would panic about so many things every [00:23:00] day. And I thought, I’ve gotta trust him. I cannot you know, just live in a state because I am he’s being, he’s with me like he mentioned the Cardinals. And in the dreams, he, he showed himself to me.

Kelly: Yeah. That’s so amazing. Well, Patty, well, did you wanna add to any of that?

Patty: Well, just that I was a witness. I just saw all of these things as God’s comfort and if you look at the title of our book that it’s about God’s comfort. At first, you know, we weren’t sure when we first started working on the book. We were concerned because it was about injustice, and it seemed like that was the story.

But there’s so many concerns about writing about legal things that you can’t even say. We couldn’t really tell the readers everything that was happening without endangering, luann and her husband legally. But we began to see that really, that’s not what the book is about anyway. Injustice was the circumstance and, but everybody suffers.

And, and it, it either relates to [00:24:00] injustice or many other things, health or divorce or just so many other things, reasons that people suffer a loss. But we realized the book was really about God’s presence in times of suffering, his comfort that he brings. And so all those things that Luann was experiencing was comfort in her dreams, comfort of the cardinals.

God wasn’t appearing to her, but he was sending her just a sign of his comfort. And we begin to see that in the scriptures too, where David calls out, show me a sign of your goodness. Yeah. And that, that’s whether it’s a cardinal or a feather or a rainbow, you hear these stories hearts, people finding heart leaves on the day that they’re prayer, walking, grieving, that God just meets us where we are and, and he knows what comforts us.

Kelly: That is so true. That’s why I think this book is powerful for anybody walking through any kind of hard thing, and it just aligned with my story too. All the hard things that our family has walked through, God met us in those places. He is [00:25:00] alive. He is alive and well, and he is sovereign and he is good. And he longs to comfort our hearts and and bolster our faith and strengthen our trust in him through signs of his presence, through his word and through the many people.

Luann. You had Maribel, this somebody you met at the cleaners. She worked at the cleaners, she was this powerful spirit-led woman. Talk about how she encouraged you.

Luann: Well, she was an angel. But I think Patty, I’ll let you start this conversation then I’ll pick up

I’ll start. ’cause

Patty: I had heard about Maribel. I was like, wow. She was always encouraging. , I was convinced that, she would drop off things at the cleaners just to run into Maribel, because Maribel always encouraged her. But Luann and I, we worked separately when we were writing her book.

I was in Dallas. She was in San Antonio. But I, I felt like we needed to get together for a while to, to begin the writing just to. To really begin strong. And so I drove down on a long three day [00:26:00] weekend.

I always knew what level of pain Luann was in by the tone of her voice on the phone. But to actually see that pain in her, I realized she’s in no condition to, to write and, and how are we gonna do this Lord?

And, and we instantly agreed we need to just start out with prayer and Bible study each morning before we write. Well, she gets a text, from Maribel out of the blue and tells her that for some reason the Lord told Maribel to fast for three days.

So here Luann and I are having a three-day writing seminar

here, Maribel, not knowing that I was even there or why I was there or what we were doing is fasting for three days. That just encouraged us to know it. And those days turned out to be really strong writing days. I told Luann, I’ve gotta meet Maribel.

So she took me down to the cleaners to meet Maribel and she instantly reminded me of one of those ladies on that, touched by an angel show, which I don’t even think I ever watched that show much. But I [00:27:00] remember seeing the woman and she, Maribel reminded me of her. And to this day, sometimes I wonder, you know, is Maribel really an angel?

’cause she just kind of would pop in and pop out. But she always left behind her this, this glow of peace and encouragement. Wow. After, for Luann, especially.

Kelly: Yeah. That’s amazing. .

Luann: Well, after the fast I thought, I’m gonna take Mariella smoothie and just to, you know, thank her and I thought this, this will help help her.

And when, when I got there, she said, Luann I have to tell you what I believe the Lord told me when I was praying for you these last three days in fasting. And she said, Luann, the Lord said, pat is like water to all who know him and that he’s a man of honor and that his honor would be restored. Well, I’ve had this intensive weekend of writing

I’m emotional, I have tears. I’m just spent. I drive home with my dry [00:28:00] cleaning and I go to the mailbox and I have a letter from Pat, so that’s always good. In that letter, he, he put a letter that a friend had written him.

But I’ve get, I’m getting it. Two minutes after my conversation with Maribel, and I have to share with you, if you don’t mind, I just wanna read a bit of this. This letter Sure. Says, this friend wrote, I want to share some things. I believe the Lord showed me while praying for you call it a vision or my mind’s eye, but I saw a huge rock.

The inside had a hollow core and looked like pearl lining. As I looked closer, the core was filled with water, pure, refreshing, restoring, and I began praying. Split the rock. Lord, split the rock. I’ve prayed this prayer many times for you, and I encourage you to pray from the same. When you need to drink from that reservoir, I believe there’s a wellspring prepared specifically for you.

The second thing that came to me, which seems so contrary to your [00:29:00] circumstances, but I believe to be true is. God has placed you in a place of honor. Now how your current residence can be called a place of honor. I can’t understand, but I know if we honor God in all of our circumstances, he will bring forth his perfect plan.

With restoring water and a seat of honor, you are in good hands. Mm. That’s now how I could receive that and within two minutes, pick this up. Only God can ate orchestrate this. I. I knew this was not a coincidence. It was absolutely, it was a sign of his presence for me. These, yeah, this repetition. And I would just get like, oh my goodness, I hate what I’m dealing with right now, but I love you Lord.

Kelly: And, and just, you know, these things helped me get from day to day, then week to week and and sharing those. And so many of this was why I had to, to write the book. I’m not, [00:30:00] you know, even on Facebook, but I felt like I couldn’t keep these nuggets and these blessings to myself. I. Right.

Well, I love that the Lord spoke honor over his situation.

Kelly: I know, I know. He was a life -giving source of water to many people that he came in contact with. He started a Bible study in the prison. They had more people come than ever. And the prison guards would yeah, just be totally amazed that he had so many visitors, so much mail and so much love poured through him.

Other wives would come up to you and say, please let your husband please have your husband talk to my

Luann: husband. They did. It happened over and over again. They would, you know, say things to me and, while I didn’t like sharing him in this way. I, he was, of course, he was a, a beacon of light and he was a wellspring for those around him.

Kelly: Amazing. No doubt. Well, he was eventually released, although it went on much longer than y’all could have anticipated. 25 months, [00:31:00] I believe. Mm-hmm. But God gave you a promise, and I thought this was really powerful. God gave you a promise that he would be released. Mm-hmm. But the wait and the delay that followed the promise was quite longer than you expected, but yet God did fulfill that.

So would you talk to us

Luann: about that? Sure. I just kept waiting at, and I, I kept trusting God and it was just kind of like, Jacob, I’m not gonna let go of you till you bless me. We’re, we’re gonna hold onto this. But finally after 25 months he was released on his mother’s birthday.

Hmm. And the timing, again, that was comforting to me. Wow. Yeah. And however, because it was the federal prison, he couldn’t come home right away. He had to go to a halfway house, but just for two months. But that was fine. I could call him all day, every day. I could see him. I could, you know, have go meet him for, anyway, it worked out.

It was, that was not a problem.

Kelly: Yeah.

Luann: And once he was actually home, I planned a party for 80 [00:32:00] people and for this party I had actually ordered tambourines I ordered them a year before this because I was so certain that , this sentence would be reversed that, you know, justice would prevail. I just held on and held onto that.

And so, I know Patty was surprised when I told her, I said, Patty, I’ve ordered these tambourines.

Patty: I had read a verse, I, I came on it in Isaiah, I think it was chapter 30 talks about in the presence of the enemies that, that you’ll be waving, tambourines in victory. Mm-hmm. And it just kind of stood out to me that I needed to share that verse with Luann. I said, I came across this verse about tambourines and she said, well, you won’t believe this, but I actually ordered tambourines and I was, I just couldn’t believe it.

I said, you ordered tambourines. And she said, yeah, I just ordered these little, I’m thinking we’ll have a victory party someday. But then she hid them away. She didn’t even wanna see them ’cause she thought she was just, you know, wishful thinking this is [00:33:00] never gonna happen. So she instantly hid them away so she wouldn’t even see them.

But I just, that connection between that verse and then finding out she had ordered tambourines, I thought. There’s gonna be a reason to use them.

Kelly: Yes. And you know what I think is so cool is that you guys could have hidden in shame. Satan would’ve wanted you to just hide in shame and just, you know, try to pretend that this didn’t happen because the sentence wasn’t reversed when he came.

home- still has this felony conviction on his record, but yet you guys celebrated in the joy and the glory of God.

Luann: We did. And Pat said, I do not want, you know, the, we felt like evil had taken so much Yeah. To take our joy and so on these tambourines, I my sister-in-law, we made stickers and we put the verse, Jeremiah 31 4, “again, you will take up your tambourine and you will go out and dance with the joyful.”

It was very important for us and for our family and for our friends. We had incredible [00:34:00] support with friends throughout visiting Pat helping me. And we wanted to celebrate that, you know, that what they had done for us and for us all to be together and truly I can. I was just in fullness of joy mode.

And we even had a cardinal appear at the party. One friend said, you’re not gonna believe it, Luann and look right there. And it was as if said, I wanna be there too. I want to be there. Oh,

Kelly: I love it. I love God. Did that. And you know what’s so funny is my daily calendar right here. The scripture I’m looking at is Psalm 1, 1, 26 verse three that says, yes, the Lord has done amazing things for us.

What joy?

Luann: I just, oh, I love that. Oh, it is. And we, you know, we just had to remember it because, this, this world is hard. Yes, we live in a broken world, and it is not easy, but he is with us.

Kelly: Amen. Amen. And that’s what your book proclaims over and over and over in your [00:35:00] life. Your story, you and Patty and your whole family have this story that God is with us.

And I love the way your fa, your church family supported you through this all. It was so beautiful. They were there for you guys. They had visitation times all set out so that Pat always had people visiting him and writing him letters and encouraging him in prison.

So Luann, along the journey, you fought for hope, you clung hope, you wrote your own acronym for hope and that was your lifeline over and over. So share that with us.

Luann: Well, exactly. This actually came from another dream.

And so in the dream, pat and I are sitting in an unfamiliar church while an unknown pastor was giving a benediction, and the benediction solicited everyone’s response. And the pastor said, we know that suffering produces. And the congregation said, perseverance. And then the [00:36:00] pastor said, and perseverance produces, and we all said character.

Then the pastor said, and character produces, and again, we all said hope. And hope does not disappoint us. Now, when I woke up, I realized that these words are from the Bible, but I did not know where they were. You know, I had no idea, but I could remember in this dream. So I type out the words and sure enough, it’s Romans chapter five, verses three through five.

And I’ve thought, oh God, you were speaking to me, you know, again, in my dreams. And that morning I’m looking at the word hope and looking at it and thinking so much about it. And I, my acronym is that HOPE stands for Hinging on Prayer, expectantly, HOPE. Psalm five verse three tells us that in the morning we are to lay our request before the Lord and wait in [00:37:00] expectation.

So for me. H hinging O on P prayer and E is expectantly. I, I really wanna pray expectantly. I know so many times we’re talk, well let’s h let’s just hedge those prayers and we’ll just, you know, that way we won’t be disappointed with what, but I wanna pray expectantly. I really do. And I share that with people and I have to tell you an interesting sidebar to this dream.

I dreamt this dream while Pat was away, but he had been home maybe six or eight months, and we are at our church, and the pastor gives a benediction. And that benediction as Pat and I sat in that pew was from Romans five, verses three through five. Mm. I never heard that as a benediction.

, but immediately I. You know, I wanted to say, well this would be a better way. Why don’t you do it? And we’ll, you know how I had seen it in my dream, but I was so happy to hear that benediction prayed over us. Yeah, it was [00:38:00] beautiful. Beautiful.

Kelly: Wow. So God was just speaking prophetically over you.

And really calling you forward to pray expectantly rather than believing God for the least he can do. He was calling you out to believe him for the best he could do.

Luann: And I think that’s so hard to do. It is so, so hard to pray with expectation. You know,

Kelly: you’re right. ’cause we don’t wanna be disappointed.

And we sit there thinking, well what can I believe him for? Is that really God’s will? But I think it’s so freeing just to say, pray your heart. What is your heart’s desire? God will sort it out, whether it’s his will or not. Yeah. Just lay it out there. Lay out your desires before the Lord. And it’s very freeing.

He’s a God who wants to give us good things. Well, Patty, you were such an amazing support and a strong prayer warrior for Luanne during this whole journey. I mean, what a gift. I’m so grateful for the ways you walked alongside of her.

One of the things you two did is you were going through the same devotional [00:39:00] at the same time together, and then talking about it over the phone, I’m just wondering if you could lay out some practical advice for those of us who are walking alongside a friend who is suffering.

Patty: Well, I needed help myself to be the kind of friend that Luann needed. At first I was a little bit dismissive of some of the things that she was telling me. I was worried that she was just talking out of her fear, but those fears were very real for her, and I had , to learn to be a better listener.

But early on I was reading through the Bible and happened on the Book of Job. And I saw not only her story of suffering that suddenly came upon her, which happened to be I. In job’s case, a spiritual attack, though he didn’t know it, and Luanne felt that way too, that she was under a spiritual attack and we can’t see these things.

Mm. And so, a lot of the wisdom we have from God’s word is for ourselves. ’cause we know what’s going on, but we have to be careful how we apply our wisdom and [00:40:00] God’s word to others. And so I saw some instruction for myself in job’s friends, because they had all this truth and wisdom. They had wisdom about God.

They had wisdom about men and judgment and all those things, but they weren’t applying those truths. Appropriately to Job’s case because they didn’t know what job’s case was. Job himself didn’t know what his caused all this. They did not know. So they were speaking wrongly. God said later in job they were speaking wrongly concerning job.

So I think as a friend we need to be a better listener then. Offering wisdom and, and for me that was a challenge because I’m better at offering wisdom than I am at listening. So Luanne had to put up with some things, I’m sure from me, but to not be dismissive about the things that she’s saying, to listen to her and not just try to encourage her in God’s word, but to, to be there walking alongside someone, just [00:41:00] being there. And I wasn’t there physically. Others were, and God used many people to encourage her besides me, always just by phone, but to be willing to be that person when the phone rang to, to pick up and to listen. And God brought me to that. It was for such a time as this, if God calls you to something, he, he prepares you to be there.

And that was a time in my life. I was empty nested. I, but my husband was still working. I was working at home. I could be there for Luann and I knew that I should be, she had just lost her mother and the Lord just called me to that. So if the Lord calls you, he will equip you. But I had to learn how to be a better friend and a , better listener.

So God’s word instructs us.

Kelly: Oh, that’s good advice. Thanks Patty. God provided you for Luann. So we’re in closing, Luann. I’m gonna close with you. You said in the conclusion of your book that not only was this the biggest battle you ever fought, but [00:42:00] it was also the biggest surrender you ever lived.

So what words of encouragement would you like to leave us with?

Luann: Well, absolutely when you surrender, then you are giving up control. So I had to surrender my wants, my needs, my life as I knew it. But giving up that control also helped me to it freed up excessive worrying.

And so

then I was trying to put trust God more.

You know, I’m gonna surrender. I cannot do anything about this. It’s not a one and done, I’ll tell you that. You have to intentionally say, okay, I picked it up. I’m trying to carry this, I gotta put it back down again. I can’t do it. But it is, you, you’re aware of it. You’re aware of giving up control of the situation.

And it was hard for me to put this book to a close ’cause I knew, well, I don’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. But I felt that what I’ve learned is that past difficulties do not exempt [00:43:00] anyone from future suffering.

Kelly: Hmm. Amen.

Luann: You can remember that God’s faithfulness and what he did and how he’s with you and all those many, many things where he showed up.

Yeah. And so if I could remember his faithfulness, then I could anticipate his goodness in the future. And Psalm 86. 17 says, show me a sign of your goodness that my enemies may see it and be put to shame for you. Oh, Lord. Have helped me and comforted me. Obviously the Psalms were just a source of comfort.

I would encourage anyone going through a period of suffering because suffering is universal.

Kelly: Yeah.

Luann: And I’ve been blessed by so many readers Patty, and I’ve received letters and, and just different things about how the book has helped them in their time of grief and pain, all different types of suffering.

And as the book continues to go, places that I cannot go, [00:44:00] I just pray that it will bring glory to God and that he will reveal signs. Of his presence in this broken world do it individually . He wants to have an intimate relationship and he will have Maribel that cleaners their cardinals show up and re scriptures and letters that show up in the mail and dreams and friends.

And as you were saying, when you’re nudged to help someone, as Patty mentioned you know, keep listening to that voice. She was on speed dial for me, not just absolute speed dial. I lost, I lost mom and dad within four months of each other at the beginning of all of this. And so I it was just what God had put on her heart, my heart, and just very grateful.

So whether you’re the person going through it or you’re the person who’s been called to walk alongside that person, so that they can continue. We joke that we were Sam and Frodo Lord, the rings Lord, the [00:45:00] ring. Yeah. So, I do hope that that it will encourage people because it is difficult, but we need to remember that joy and his mercies are new every morning. There’s something new ahead for us,

Kelly: amen. That is so true. The book is full of encouragement. The title again is, Signs of His Presence, experiencing God’s Comfort in Times of Suffering. Luann and Patty, thank you so much for being here, and thank you for all your hard work.

God bless you guys. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you again. Thank you so much.

If you were encouraged in your faith today, it’d be great if you’d help get the word out by subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving a review. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach out through my website, kelly hall.org and pick up some free resources while you’re there. Thanks for listening to the Unshakable Hope podcast.